[snapdragon]

That's what it means, Donald. Can's you see that? Because women are entitled to the same bodily sovereignty as everyone, then a foetus cannot use the woman's body against her wishes.

[Pants-of-dog]

The phrase "control of the body" clearly discusses how the woman has a right to control her own body, and not have the fetus or the state use it without her permission.

[Donna]

That doesn't say anything about unborn babies using their mothers' bodies without their consent.

[Pants-of-dog]

It does not use those exact words, but it clearly says the same thing using different words.

I can also discuss the illegal and intentional homicide of one person by another and it is still murder without using the word "murder".

[Donna]

It does not use those exact words...

Thank you. Have a nice day.

[Pants-of-dog]

As long as we agree that it does say that, but uses other words.

[Donna]

[snapdragon]

Donald, it's absolutely does mean that the foetus cannot use the woman's body against her wishes. Her body was already protected from being used by another person without her permission and it was felt ( quite rightly) that an unborn human entity shouldn't have those rights, either.

It's common sense.

Every country should be like Canada. There is no need to have laws that restrict abortion. It is not about protecting life, otherwise donating body parts, including blood, would be compulsory.

So, what is it about for you, Donald? Why is the life of a foetus more important to you than the life of a born human being? A person who can feel and think and has family and friends who know them and love them?

[Rich]

I've had a bit of a road to Damascus conversion. I now think we should follow the Bible on abortion. The Bible is pretty clear that life has no value before one month from birth. The Bible doesn't merely condone abortion, in certain circumstances it prescribes it. If you think your woman has got pregnant by someone else you're encouraged to get an abortion from the Priests. According to the Bible abortion is Holy.

Now don't think we should follow the Bible absolutely, in prosperous, peaceful, advanced western societies, I'm happy for the State for government to grant protections to healthy full term babies. However the basic Biblical teaching is sound as opposed to the degenerate cretinism of modern social Conservatism.

[Dystopian Darkness]

My view on abortion is one of moral neutrality. Abortion isn't immoral or moral, it's just an abortion. I don't consider the fetus a human being with personhood. If it was otherwise, I would be pro-life. B sides, I find it preferable to abort than have kids you don't want - And don't even dare mentioning "adoption", there aren't many countries in the world will fully capable, well functioning adoption institutions

[One Degree]

Issues as divided as abortion can only be left to the individual. You will get no help by asking for guidance. It is a decision that each must make by analyzing their deepest feelings. It is something that can not be logically induced. Only those faced with the choice will come to understand their true feelings.

[Dagoth Ur]

That sounds emotional and all but the issue is clear. Forcing a woman to carry a child (ie anti-abortion laws) is inherently wrong.

[One Degree]

Obviously, if I believe the choice must be left with the individual, then I agree they should not be forced to do anything.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm talking about the fact that choices and feelings are completely irrelevent.

[One Degree]

Sorry, I seem to be missing something. The woman still needs to make a choice. This must be based upon her feelings.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

That sounds emotional and all but the issue is clear. Forcing a woman to carry a child (ie anti-abortion laws) is inherently wrong.

Killing an innocent human with corrosive chemicals when it is at its most vulnerable is inherently wrong.

[Rei Murasame]

Killing an innocent human with corrosive chemicals when it is at its most vulnerable is inherently wrong.

Believing that there is genuinely such a thing as 'an innocent human' is inherently dumb.

But I'll play along for a moment so as to show you how ridiculous you are. Pro-life people really choose their moments to invoke this ridiculous concept. You invoke 'pro-life' nonsense to rob families and women in general of their ability to control the propagation of their own genes and control of there own gametes and reproductive system because you claim that foetuses are 'innocent humans', whatever the hell that means.

But according to you, people sitting at their desks or visiting friends at work on the morning of 9/11, or are on planes just travelling are 'not innocent', and 'only have themselves to blame'. According to you, Mullah Omar is 'not to blame', Osama bin Laden is 'not to blame', and the 19 hijackers are 'not to blame'.

9/11 - Voices from the Air: Call from Flight 11
[youtube]_m9_HVdIeQM[/youtube]

Apparently the events transpiring there, are consistent with Jessup's 'pro-life' ethic. Which shows that the 'pro-life' ethic clearly is a worthless piece of junk.

I never like seeing innocent people die but America has made an industry out of slaughtering the innocent in their millions so as far as I'm concerned until they change their ways they can all go to hell.

I take no joy in seeing American citizens killed as they go about their daily lives but they only have themselves to blame so my sympathy is minimal.

[skinster]

Back to the topic, yes, women should be able to abort a child whenever they want. In fact, more women should do this and the ones who want kids should adopt those shitloads of parent-less children that are already available.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

@Rei, the difference is rei that I don't condone the killing of American citizens I'm just not overly concerned about it as their government has decided to wage perpetual war across the planet so consequences must be expected.For the same reason I don't condone the killing of American citizens neither do I condone the killing of unborn babies although I have more sympathy for the unborn for while they and the average American share a similar level of ignorance to the world around them, they are helpless to do anything about it.

[Rei Murasame]

You and I live in different worlds sometimes, since I recall that after the planes hit and they realised that this was indeed a terrorist operation that was occuring in the real world, Americans were 'doing something about it'.

The end of the log tape for NEADS also indicates clearly where NATO was heading to after that moment. Just as a reminder:

Floor Leadership: You need to read this. Region Commander has declared that we can shoot down tracks if they are not responding to our, uh, directions.

MCC Position: Ok. I’ll pass that to weapons.

Floor Leadership: Ok.

MCC Position: The Region Com, the Region Commander has declared that we can shoot down aircraft that do not respond to our direction. Copy that?

Weapons: Copy that sir.

MCC Position: So if you’re trying to divert somebody and he won’t divert—

Major Fox: D-O is saying no.

MCC Position: No? It came over the chat. Foxy, you got a conflict on that, you got a conflict on that direction?

Major Fox: Right now, no, but—

MCC Position: Ok.

Floor Leadership: Hey—

MCC Position: Ok.

Floor Leadership: You read that from the Vice President, right? The Vice President has cleared—

MCC Position: Vice President has cleared us to intercept tracks—

Floor Leadership: Of interest—

MCC Position: And shoot them down if they do not respond, per CONR CC.

[...]

Controller: Tell me what you need to tell me.

Controller: This is for Panta One, correct, they’re capping over—

Major Fox: Yes.

Controller: Boston—ok, what.

Major Fox: Any track of interest that’s headin’ towards a major city you will ID, if you cannot divert them away from a major city, you are to confirm with me first, most likely you will get clearance to shoot.

Controller: And tell me, I have to tell them that in the clear?

Major Fox: You can tell them exactly in those words.

Controller: Ok.

Background: (Indistinct).

Controller: Stand by. I gotta pass this right now.

Controller: Panta one, Huntress.

Panta One: Panta One

Controller: Panta one call all, all and any tracks of interest, verify if they were going toward a major city, mission ID, unsuccessful, divert, ask for our clearance to shoot.

Controller: MCC, when able, ah, the kill direction, once again, I want it one more time before I tell these guys. I’m just gonna give them a brief. I’m not goin’ to tell them to do nothin’. I’m gonna say what, what to expect, though.

[Background] Major Fox: Just, tell ‘em right now we have intercept authority only—

Cobra One: Huntress, Cobra One.

Controller: Stand by.

Controller: I told them our mission is to protect major centres and we’re goin’ to take you and drag you down to Pittsburgh, and do this, because I got a tanker comin’ now. But, ah, I just want to give them an ROE because it’s gonna’ be auto-ops once he’s down there. So I want to make sure I got clear concise words to him before he leaves. Granted they only got four turrets of guns

[Background] Unknown: If they don’t, ah, if they do not, don’t respond to divert to hand signals and divert procedures and are headed toward a major area then you are cleared to engage.

Controller: Wilco.

Controller: Cobra and Apex, this is Huntress.

Cobra One: Huntress.

Huntress: Okay, there is still a bit of traffic airborne, they’re not all completely down, I imagine it’s all low south of you, if you’ll hold two loops before the tanker gets, ah, Oh, shit, I need a check list.

Cobra One: Cobra One copies

Controller: OK, I have ah ROE instructions, are you ready to copy?

Cobra One. Stand by, Huntress.

Cobra One: This is, ah, Cobra One, go ahead.

Controller: Ok the, OK the direction ah protectin’ the major centres, when you’re overhead the major centre, be it Pittsburgh in this case, you’re, you have intercept authority on any traffic in the area. And if, if the traffic does not respond to, ah, hand signals, divert procedures, anything like that, and they continue to press in a threatening manner towards the major centre, you’re cleared to engage.

Cobra One: Cobra copies.

Unknown: This is a new type of war, that’s what it is.

Surveillance Tech 1: Is today like a national terrorist day or something that we missed out on?

Surveillance Tech 2: Actually, ah, this is a day (indistinct) for a long time.

Surveillance Tech 1: September 11th, 2001.

This right here is the moment that the United States entered the reality that everyone else had been living in already. PoFo however is unfortunately full of left-liberals who literally refuse to enter this reality, this 'new type of war'.

It wasn't just that the ROE was altered in that way on a single day for a while. The whole psyche of the Anglo-Saxons was irrevocably changed. The bubble of feigned innocence and easy choices had been pierced by the reality of terrorism and it burst, never to be reinflated again.