[Dr House]

Calling for a usury free economy is a bit like calling for a pollution free environment - everyone says its impossible just because a few powerful fat cats who directly benefit from it tell us it can't be done.

The flaw in that reasoning is an "usury"-free society isn't necessarily desirable.

[Wolfman]

Care to source this knowledge.

It's common knowledge amoung people who spend time studying international affairs. However, here you go:

traditional defense of the national debt is that Americans "owe the debt to themselves", but that is becoming increasingly less accurate. The US debt in the hands of foreign governments was 25% of the total in 2007,[18] virtually double the 1988 figure of 13%.[19] Despite the declining willingness of foreign investors to continue investing in US dollar denominated instruments as the US dollar fell in 2007,[20] the U.S. Treasury statistics indicate that, at the end of 2006, foreigners held 44% of federal debt held by the public.[21] About 66% of that 44% was held by the central banks of other countries, in particular the central banks of Japan and China.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... _ownership

[KPres]

Actually, the dark ages basically ushered in the beginning of usury. Rich powerful landowners offer "protection" to the vulnerable peasants, and in return they spend the rest of their lives in indentured servitude - with their offspring of course inheriting the parents "debt". This is the principle of usury - to ensure that one section of society remains rich and powerful, and the other section remains permanently in their debt.

If the serfs didn't enter that arrangement freely, then that's slavery, not usury. Nobody in the modern world holds a gun to your head and tells you to get a credit card.

[Wolfman]

You just need a credit card to buy a car, or a house, or get a loan, or buy a cell phone. Not like those things are pretty damn importent.

[KPres]

You just need a credit card to buy a car, or a house, or get a loan, or buy a cell phone. Not like those things are pretty damn importent.

Which is exactly why the market created secured credit cards.

[Wolfman]

I'm pretty sure there is something about the Government in there, but you completely missed the point of my reply.

[Todd D.]

You just need a credit card to buy a car, or a house, or get a loan, or buy a cell phone. Not like those things are pretty damn importent.

What are you talking about? I don't have any credit cards, yet I have a car, a house w/ a mortgage, and a cell phone. The car and, obviously, the house are financed, but unless you want to consider all forms of debt a "credit card" (which is pretty dumb), then your statement is entirely false.

As House noted, people are coming it this already deciding that "debt" itself is bad, which isn't necessarily the case. You'd have to suggest that the time-value of money is fundamentally flawed in order to argue that interest is inappropriate. Good luck with that.

[Plaro]

Wolfman how much do other countries own money to the States?

This master-debtor relationship has been the bedrock of our economy and society for centuries.

I could not agree more.

[Plaro]

My solution to the "Debt" problem

Eliminate the concept of money.

Damn, I double posted again.

[GandalfTheGrey]

If the serfs didn't enter that arrangement freely, then that's slavery, not usury. Nobody in the modern world holds a gun to your head and tells you to get a credit card.

Sure they have a choice, but some choice it is. We live in a society that tells us if you are not up to your eyeballs in debt, then you are not a worthy human being. You simply *have* to have your own house which you will be paying the interest on for the rest of your life (never mind the principle). Not to mention you *have* to have that big car, 42" plasma TV, touch screen mobile phone and those house extensions to get that "view" (not to enjoy it, but to increase the value of the house so that you can afford to put yourself in more debt). And why not? The creditors are extra kind these days, as you can buy all these things with up to 2 years interest free. Then there's your overseas trip which is a cinch now with your "priceless" master card. This is the well oiled and irresistable propaganda machine that has been working on overdrive pretty much since the end of WWII.

[Wolfman]

I don't have any credit cards, yet I have a car, a house w/ a mortgage, and a cell phone.

All need a line of credit, so I'm gonna geuss you had a credit card in the past, or did something that established a line of credit such as putting a massive deposit on your house. Or you live in a trailor park with car that you bought at a you pull it place that has little to no insurance, and your cell phone is like 10 years old. Lulz.

Wolfman how much do other countries own money to the States?

I already answered this. Other countries governments own 25% of US Debt, with foreign nationals (ie, non-Americans) owning 44% (66% percent of which is actually owned by the central bank of that country). So American actually own about 31% of our national debt.

[QatzelOk]

So American actually own about 31% of our national debt.

Why don't Americans try selling their debt to one another at a profit?

This would eliminate both the debt problem and the reality problem.

[Plaro]

This would eliminate both the debt problem and the reality problem

That is where I was leading to.

[Wolfman]

Why don't Americans try selling their debt to one another at a profit?

Well, if we were to do that we'd have to sell it for less then it's worth so that that country could atleast think they'd have the ability to sell it for a profit. So, 31% could go for about 25%. With that money we could counter balance 25% of the debt we owe. But, we'd then have to completely admit to ourselves that our debt mostly isn't ours.

[Strikeman]

The debt isn't that alarming mostly because we have a large economy. It's also a positive thing that fiscal responsibility is becoming more talked about now than ever before (at least in the last couple of years). Health care reform and going green is essential to fiscal prudence. Things will eventually get better, and as for now we can benefit from the weak green back.

[Rancid]

The problem will happen when countries like China decide to stop financing our debt (by buying bonds)

[Nandi]

Exactly, a governmental debt bubble is already forming as we speak. As in any bubble the players, here the government, seems to believe debt can keep accumulating without a multitude of complications. With a future of prolonged economic stagnation and the inevitable amassment of debt, the chance of the bubble popping sometime along the road seems quite likely. The developing world can't and won't keep financing our spending binges.

[Rancid]

Indeed,

The part the sickens me the most is that we currently have a recessions. People honestly believe that "we've learned our lesson" yet our deficient spending is tripling.

How exactly have we learned anything?

I don't think "we" will learn until the rest of the world stops financing our debt.

[Strikeman]

Obviously we can't get back on a better fiscal path immediately. It'll take some time. The rest of the world isn't financing our debt for no reason... it's an investment.

[Rancid]

Obviously we can't get back on a better fiscal path immediately. It'll take some time. The rest of the world isn't financing our debt for no reason... it's an investment.

That's been the excuse for decades now. Many other countries are already actively trying to get away from US dollars, and buying US government bonds.

The jig is up my friend.

After every recession out politicians always say "we're going to fix it this time!"

Unfortunately Americans are stupid enough to believe it. We really don't deserve to have a great country.