[Philby]

Sure?

[JohnRawls]

Estonia doesn't have Euro yet . We wanna get it By 2011 because of that Chart .

By our , i ment european inflation or inflation of the Euro.

[Philby]

You will never get the Euro with such stats. It's obvious you don't see see the economic consequences.

In my point of view it is done with Greece, kick them out of the EU. If Italy is in the same position...kick them out as well. If new memberstates do not perform as required.....kick them out. At the end we will have 9 or 10 countries left, and we will have a manageable EU.

[JohnRawls]

Calm down it is not the country it is the crisis , everybody doing shit right now. Exept probably china well they are also doing relatively shitty.

[Philby]

Sorry John, you're wrong again, it's the country, it's Greece. I'm confused you don't see it, because it's clearly written in both articles.

[JohnRawls]

1st the crisis comment was about estonia . Our inflation is lower just the crisis screwed us this year , well actually it wasn't the crysis it was our neibhour going bancrupt , we were doing fine and dandy untill then .

As for greece , i've stated above that there are ways to 'dodge' that article . Direct help might be forbidden but 'inderect' is still possible .

[Philby]

article 1
Even those figures may have been doctored. At the time, the Greeks managed to increase their official gross national product by a hefty 25 percent, partly because they included the black market and prostitution in economic output. This brought down the deficit rate -- on paper, at any rate -- to 2.9 percent.

article 2
Moreover, the Greek government turned out to be untrustworthy. In 2004, Greece admitted that it had lied about the size of its deficit ever since 2000 – precisely the years used to assess Greece’s application to join the euro zone. In other words, Greece qualified only by cheating. In November 2009, it appeared that the Greek government lied once again, this time about the deficit in 2008 and the projected deficit for 2009.

Now John, please look at your signature.

[JohnRawls]

Sorry i misunderstood the article you were refering to . I though about 3% inflation thing that they cannot be subsidized because of that . ( The paragraphs in european law are often referred to as articles , sorry but its a law thing and i am studying it so its kinda geeky )

But you were referring about something else . Yes that is cheating i agree but . But expultion is a bit to much i think.

[Philby]

Yes that is cheating i agree but . But expultion is a bit to much i think.

Kick ass is too much? I don't think so. If a country joins the Euro zone by cheating and continues to cheat up till now there is only one solution. I will go further, because of the cheating they have gathered funds worth billions of Euro's. It is obvious they have to pay those funds back. So:

1- Greece should be forced to leave the EU
2- Greece should pay back all the money they've benefited from but received by violating the rules (and the law)
3- Greece should go to the IMF and beg for a loan (like Iceland)
4- It should be absolutely clear to all memberstates that cheating means leaving the EU

I forsee the same problem with other countries. Countries like Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and other east-european states, the Baltic states and maby even Portugal and Spain. But there should be no mercy, enough is enough.

[JohnRawls]

It cheated to join the Euro zone , to adobt the Euro. SO at max you could kick greece out of Euro zone but that will cause the collapse of its economy.

In Law there is a 'good faith' principle and the 'principle of proportionality' which this decision will certainly break .

Becides the problem is there is no such law that states what will happen to a state if they 'cheat' while joining . So i doubt such severe actions will be taken .

[Philby]

You do need some reading about the matter.

SO at max you could kick greece out of Euro zone

The Euro is the EU

and some more reading

[JohnRawls]

The EU is the European Union .

The Euro Zone is the zone where the Euro is used .

The Eu refers not only the to the financial but also Judicial and other systems .

On the otherhand The Euro Zone refers to the countries which use the Euro currency .

And please don't lecture me on European Union law . I just Aced the exam in it 5 days ago.

The euro is the single currency shared by (currently) 16 of the European Union's Member States, which together make up the euro area. The introduction of the euro in 1999 was a major step in European integration. It has also been one of its major successes: around 329 million EU citizens now use it as their currency and enjoy its benefits, which will spread even more widely as other EU countries adopt the euro.

That is from one of your sources. This article clearly makes a distinction between the Eu and the countries that use Euro (Euro Zone) .

And not in ANY article of the Eu it is written that the use of Euro currency is obligatory hence 9 out of 27 member states don't have Euro.

[Philby]

I don't get it anymore, the EU introduced the Euro......thus the EU is the Euro......thus if a country is cheating it is obvious the EU will give a penalty and not the Eurozone which is not even an entity. The Eurozone is nothing.

And please don't lecture me on European Union law

I am not lecturing you, but it seems you don't understand it at all.

This article clearly makes a distinction between the Eu and the countries that use Euro (Euro Zone)

Absolutely false, please read it again. It states that not all countries use the Euro, but you said:

SO at max you could kick greece out of Euro zone

which is a absolutly ridiculous statement as you can read.

Something about what could happen if a memberstate do not follow the rules (in the other link)

THE COUNCIL

1. is committed to a rigorous and timely implementation of all elements of the Stability and Growth Pact in its competence; it will take the necessary decisions under Article 103 and Article 104c as is practicable;

2. is urged to regard the deadlines for the application of the excessive deficit procedure as upper limits; in particular, the Council, acting under Article 104c (7), shall recommend that excessive deficits be corrected as quickly as possible after their emergence, no later than the year following their identification, unless there are special circumstances;

3. is invited always to impose sanctions if a participating Member State fails to take the necessary steps to bring the excessive deficit situation to an end as recommended by the Council;

4. is urged always to require a non-interest bearing deposit, whenever the Council decides to impose sanctions on a participating Member State in accordance with Article 104c (11);

5. is urged always to convert a deposit into a fine after two years of the decision to impose sanctions in accordance with Article 104c (11), unless the excessive deficit has in the view of the Council been corrected;

6. is invited always to state in writing the reasons which justify a decision not to act if at any stage of the excessive deficit or surveillance of budgetary positions procedures the Council did not act on a Commission recommendation and, in such a case, to make public the votes cast by each Member State.

[JohnRawls]

The Eu is a economic/judicial/ etc union. ( Look not monetary )

The Euro Zone is the MONETARY union. ( Under international bank regulation laws , it is allowed to creat monetary unions between countries in which those countries act as Fair and Equal partners and use the same monetary system )

They are not totally separate unions , actually they are pretty close to each other but they are not one and the same.
The Euro Zone might be considered a PART of the European Union but cannot be considered as a WHOLE .

Eu stand for European union. Euro Zone just means the countries that use the Euro. How can you not understand the fundamental difference between the two ?

THE COUNCIL

1. is committed to a rigorous and timely implementation of all elements of the Stability and Growth Pact in its competence; it will take the necessary decisions under Article 103 and Article 104c as is practicable;

2. is urged to regard the deadlines for the application of the excessive deficit procedure as upper limits; in particular, the Council, acting under Article 104c (7), shall recommend that excessive deficits be corrected as quickly as possible after their emergence, no later than the year following their identification, unless there are special circumstances;

3. is invited always to impose sanctions if a participating Member State fails to take the necessary steps to bring the excessive deficit situation to an end as recommended by the Council;

4. is urged always to require a non-interest bearing deposit, whenever the Council decides to impose sanctions on a participating Member State in accordance with Article 104c (11);

5. is urged always to convert a deposit into a fine after two years of the decision to impose sanctions in accordance with Article 104c (11), unless the excessive deficit has in the view of the Council been corrected;

6. is invited always to state in writing the reasons which justify a decision not to act if at any stage of the excessive deficit or surveillance of budgetary positions procedures the Council did not act on a Commission recommendation and, in such a case, to make public the votes cast by each Member State.

Which just prooves what i said. Expulsion out of the European Union is not possible . Expulsion out of the Euro zone is VERY unlikely . Maximum that it can do is

shall recommend that excessive deficits be corrected as quickly as possible after their emergence, no later than the year following their identification, unless there are special circumstances

is invited always to impose sanctions if a participating Member State fails to take the necessary steps to bring the excessive deficit situation to an end as recommended by the Council

We need to controll 2 things . 1st Global economical crysis can be considered a force majoure , so it automatically can be described as special circumstances IF the council has not issued sanctions / recomendations to the Greece government before .

2nd Even if it did issue they could just dodge it by the same way said above . Special Circumstances is force majoure . Force Majoure is the economical crysis , so i doubt anything would happen .

[Philby]

Sorry John I let it go. You don't get it at all.

[JohnRawls]

Then explain it properly what i don't get . You are saying , as i understand , Since the EU countries created the Euro Zone ( European monetary union ) , the EU has become the Euro zone which is not true .

They are 2 cooperating enteties but they are not one and the same .

Euro might be a part of the intergrational process but not THE most important part in it .

[killim]

I honestly can't see the problem with Greece. The small amount of inflation, which is created by the downgrade of Greece is very welcome. If Greece gets into minor default the ECB is able to handle it and if not i expect at least that same policy that was applied to the Baltic states in exchange for help.

If there is any risk that extensive help may create additional danger for moral hazard, i expect that the Bundesbank will crucify Merkel in public and thereby stop this stupid policy as they have done some times before with short sighted administrations.

[JohnRawls]

What do you mean by baltic states , you must mean Latvia ? Don't mistake us with latvia we are doing fine , Estonia that is . Although gdp drop and things like that happened because our neibhour went bancrupt and the crysis we still have 20 billion krone (2 billion dollars in reserves) . So we don't need any loans .....

[killim]

I was talking primarily about Latvia and Estonia. Latvia was already in a bad shape before the crisis exploded and therefore forced to make harder decisions.

For Estonia i remember a drop in payrolls around 20% in civil and around 7%-10% in public jobs, despite the fact that they were in a much better position. I don't know the amount (100% GDP iirc) of carry trades in Estonia but for Latvia i remember that they were horrible and the domestic and foreign debt together in Estonia is something around 200% of GDP iirc. I remember a 37% drop in industrial production and for I/2009 a drop around 15% of GDP.

[JohnRawls]

Estonia’s government debt the lowest in EU
Posted on October 23, 2009 by kairikurm

According to Eurostat, Estonia had the lowest ratio of government debt to GDP in 2008 at 4.6%. Estonia was followed by Luxembourg (13.5%), Romania (13.6%), Bulgaria (14.1%), and Lithuania (15.6%).

In 2008 the largest government deficits in percentage of GDP were recorded by Greece (-7.7%), Ireland (-7.2%), Romania (-5.5%), the United Kingdom (-5.0%), Malta (-4.7%), Spain (-4.1%), Latvia (-4.1%), Hungary (-3.8%), Poland (-3.6%), France (-3.4%) and Lithuania (-3.2%).

Read more: BBN

http://brilliantfixer.wordpress.com/200 ... est-in-eu/

Now i confirmed . What kind of crap is this

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/ta ... election=2

Eurostat confirms it . Estonia has the lowest debt burden in the EU.

Industrial productivity decline was monstrouse everywhere in the world by the way around 30-50% because of the crysis and the payroll thing is that our minimum wage is about at 2.1Eu/Hour but actually it was around 6-7eu/Hour minimum(in reality) . Just someone used the loophall durring crysis to decrease payrolls.