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By Piccolo
#14408398
I am having trouble understanding the concept of "from each according to his ability to each according to his need." How would this work in a real-world communist society? I am interested in this concept because it is such a radical departure from bourgeoisie notions of meritocracy/equality of opportunity as well as the typical charge that communism aims at perfect income equality.

Thanks.
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By redcarpet
#14408490
Well like with rationing, no doubt when it comes to wages you couldn't get wage rises or benefits, nor bonuses, way beyond your need.

So in a communist society, would an employee on a high income successfully obtain a pay rise of say more than $1,000 in a single raise, etc? I doubt it.

Just as when it comes to rationing (which I support even in peacetime) why should a silly woman be able to go to a supermarket, hold up other people in a waiting line in a 15-items only section, be able to buy 50 cat food cans? I doubt they would be able to. 5-10 at most sounds fair.
By SolarCross
#14408744
redcarpet wrote:Just as when it comes to rationing (which I support even in peacetime) why should a silly woman be able to go to a supermarket, hold up other people in a waiting line in a 15-items only section, be able to buy 50 cat food cans? I doubt they would be able to. 5-10 at most sounds fair.

What if the "silly" woman was running a cattery and the national catfood supplier that supposedly would provide all her catfood for free had failed to deliver (again) and she had to make an emergency purchase to prevent 50 of her customers cats from starving to death over the weekend? What would a doley know about economics?
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By redcarpet
#14408757
That's usually an order made by other arrangements. I'm talking about individuals here

What would a doley know about economics?


Whom are you referring to?
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By Harmattan
#14408835
redcarpet wrote:why should a silly woman be able to go to a supermarket, hold up other people in a waiting line in a 15-items only section, be able to buy 50 cat food cans?

Anytime someone asks "why should he/her be allowed to...", I know it is going to end in a bath of blood.
By mikema63
#14408887
Direct control of the economy works better with more information technology.

Very likely, at least to begin with, people will simply be provided with a card loaded with their allotment.

Goods would be priced according to their production costs.

By automating supply chains electronically you could avoid some of the problems caused by beurocritization.
By SolarCross
#14408913
mikema63 wrote:Direct control of the economy works better with more information technology.

Very likely, at least to begin with, people will simply be provided with a card loaded with their allotment.

Goods would be priced according to their production costs.

By automating supply chains electronically you could avoid some of the problems caused by beurocritization.

lol, you don't seriously want that do you? Its like something out of a dystopian novel.
By Conscript
#14408920
taxizen wrote:lol, you don't seriously want that do you? Its like something out of a dystopian novel.


It's a fantastic idea actually. The applications of computers to planning is very promising.
By SolarCross
#14408923
Conscript wrote:It's a fantastic idea actually. The applications of computers to planning is very promising.

If you people want authoritarians to tell you what to do and what you can have why don't you all go to prison? Prisons are in practice what you want in your ideals. Surely we don't all need to go to prison though and no one could afford to keep a prison economy going without a real economy to leech off to subsidise it.
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By Cromwell
#14408927
taxizen wrote:If you people want authoritarians to tell you what to do and what you can have why don't you all go to prison? Prisons are in practice what you want in your ideals. Surely we don't all need to go to prison though and no one could afford to keep a prison economy going without a real economy to leech off to subsidise it.


Do you actually think about your responses before you write them?

Allocation of resources is not comparable to a loss of personal and social freedom, at all. Even if it was to be suggested that no person should have any say whatsoever in what they eat or what they wear; that would not, automatically, imply that no person should have any say in how they conduct the most important aspects of their lives, such as where they live, how they spend their leisure time and who they form relationships with.

Ask a starving man whether he'd like to be fed (but have little choice in what he was given) or whether he'd like to choose any item of food from an expansive menu (but with the chance that he wouldn't get anything) and I wonder what he'd choose.
By SolarCross
#14408933
Cromwell wrote:Do you actually think about your responses before you write them?

Allocation of resources is not comparable to a loss of personal and social freedom, at all. Even if it was to be suggested that no person should have any say whatsoever in what they eat or what they wear; that would not, automatically, imply that no person should have any say in how they conduct the most important aspects of their lives, such as where they live, how they spend their leisure time and who they form relationships with.

Ask a starving man whether he'd like to be fed (but have little choice in what he was given) or whether he'd like to choose any item of food from an expansive menu (but with the chance that he wouldn't get anything) and I wonder what he'd choose.

Who is starving? Brits are nearly as fat as americans. Look if you are all too much a bunch of failures that you can't manage to look after your ownselves, just get yourself sent to prison. You can have a nice bunk rent free, communal meals and showers, and some make work allocated to you so you don't get too bored. Probably there will be a vet on hand for taking care of your boo boos.
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By Cromwell
#14408940
taxizen wrote:Who is starving? Brits are nearly as fat as americans. Look if you are all too much a bunch of failures that you can't manage to look after your ownselves, just get yourself sent to prison. You can have a nice bunk rent free, communal meals and showers, and some make work allocated to you so you don't get too bored. Probably there will be a vet on hand for taking care of your boo boos.


No, some Brits are nearly as fat as Americans. The fact is, as you well know, that food poverty is on the rise in Britain, to say nothing of the Third World. Some people do get themselves sent to prison; others have children that they don't want to leave. The utter callousness of Libertarians never ceases to amaze me.

Next, of course, you'll tell me that there's a welfare state for them to take advantage (and not admit that you'd want it to be completely dismantled).
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By Harmattan
#14408942
mikema63 wrote:Direct control of the economy works better with more information technology.

No matter information technology, things will never be fixed :

* The sample size is too small. With just a hundred countries, economists are unable to reach a consensus on what is efficient and what is not and how the economy works. There are so many factors and so few countries. This problem will still be unsolvable in decades and maybe centuries. I am not sure whether it will be ever solved.

* Arbitrating will never be neutral: you're still doing subjective choices for the people by telling them what they can do, regulating almost all aspects of their lives from their entertainment (here is X games and Y books) to their bedroom (here are Z contraceptives).

Very likely, at least to begin with, people will simply be provided with a card loaded with their allotment.

Very likely, at least to begin with, people will want to rip your head off your vertebrae and re-instigate capitalism. Nothing that can't be solved with a big pack of guns, isn't it?
#14408958
Our production, per individual, is millions of millions of times higher than that of the paleolithic, neolithic, and still at least hundreds of thousands of times that of people after the agricultural revolution, and at least hundreds of times that of someone at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

Yet, our masters and their apologists demand that the majority suffer so that they can have more.

Debating about the theoretical implications of some specific propagandized version of freedom on a slippery-slope argument is absurd.

The fact is that we are way more productive, have way more things, and way better organized than ever before and yet rich people are getting richer while most people are getting poorer and working harder. Sometimes that moves around a little but, but very slightly. The trend remains the same in well working capitalist societies. Sure, the places the capitalists went in and spent several generations raping all the women, torturing all the men, and stealing all of their resources are sometimes (though not always) doing better after the kick the capitalist leaders out. But generally, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Still.

You want to know what we will do to make things better?

Get rid of a system of material slavery where we have to judge ourselves based on how poorly our masters treat us. A company that creates something and makes the same amount of money as it did last year, in a capitalist system, is a failure. The profits must keep growing.

What is the profit? That's what the employer takes from the worker. The worker, by necessity in the system, works harder and makes more things than he is paid to do so that some profit is left over for the employer.

Great, so already we have a system where the employer must constrict everything around the worker as much as possible in order to get more year after year.

And it goes beyond this.

Specifically what do we want to do? We want to look at a given system, analyze it, and then come up with a solution that will give as much to as many as possible and ensure that we all live like the princes we deserve to live like. As noted, we are thousands upon thousands of times more productive than the cave man, but we have millions upon millions living in slums and garbage heaps in conditions far worse than any cave man.

That's all we ask for. A solution in part of India is going to look different than the collapse of the United States into a socialist nation. You look at what you have, and you make it better for everyone. This is the radical authoritarian menace that the capitalists want to stop.

For our masters and their hand-lickers, freedom is an abstract metric with which to measure the power of the most powerful to do what they want, which cannot be practically exercised by the poor.

Or, as Lenin said better:

Lenin wrote:But this democracy is always hemmed in by the narrow limits set by capitalist exploitation, and consequently always remains, in effect, a democracy for the minority, only for the propertied classes, only for the rich. Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. Owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, the modern wage slaves are so crushed by want and poverty that "they cannot be bothered with democracy", "cannot be bothered with politics"; in the ordinary, peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participation in public and political life.

...Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society. If we look more closely into the machinery of capitalist democracy, we see everywhere, in the “petty”--supposedly petty--details of the suffrage (residential qualifications, exclusion of women, etc.), in the technique of the representative institutions, in the actual obstacles to the right of assembly (public buildings are not for “paupers”!), in the purely capitalist organization of the daily press, etc., etc.,--we see restriction after restriction upon democracy. These restrictions, exceptions, exclusions, obstacles for the poor seem slight, especially in the eyes of one who has never known want himself and has never been inclose contact with the oppressed classes in their mass life (and nine out of 10, if not 99 out of 100, bourgeois publicists and politicians come under this category); but in their sum total these restrictions exclude and squeeze out the poor from politics, from active participation in democracy.


So in conclusion, from each their ability, we all do something now to live—some kind of labor is something we do for ourselves anyway in our free time. From each according to his need: we have the resources, the progress, the ability to make sure everyone has what he or she needs.

How would it work specifically? Marxism is an analysis, we can predict some things that are likely to happen and adjust from there. It isn't fortune telling. But as an analysis, we have to look at the conditions of the revolution, the available resourced, etc, etc, etc. But our demands, most moderate, are we only want the Earth.
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By Harmattan
#14408971
The Immortal Goon wrote:Our production, per individual, is millions of millions of times higher than that of the paleolithic, neolithic, and still at least hundreds of thousands of times that of people after the agricultural revolution, and at least hundreds of times that of someone at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

The energy spent in production per human today is dozens of times those of human beings. So our production is in the order of dozens of times higher. Not millions. Consider that you are the proud owner of a hundred of slaves.

Yet, our masters and their apologists demand that the majority suffer so that they can have more.

The added value (product's price minus resources' price) per capita and per year in the US is 50k$ (35k€). This means that with an equal distribution of wealth you could spend no more than 50k$ per year, minus your contribution to public services. This contribution typically amounts to 30% to 50% of the added value. [b]So in an equalitarian state with socialized medicine and such, you would find yourself with no more than 25k$ (15k€) per capita and per year[b], provided that the added value generated would stay the same (which is unlikely - greed is a powerful drive and collectivization a less efficient organization - sometimes greatly inefficient).

Now if we were to share the added value at the world level (remember that if you are a jobless westerner then you are actually a damn rich capitalist exploiting Chinese people), then you would have no more than 12k$ per capita and per year, 6k$ after deducing your public contribution!

Get rid of a system of material slavery where we have to judge ourselves based on how poorly our masters treat us.

If you want to get rid of your dependency to the consumerist society, go live in the woods by yourself.
What you want is the benefits of this organization, without its inconveniences. And you think it is possible because you believe that there are vast pools of wealth to tap from, enough for everyone. Which is wrong, see below.

What is the profit? That's what the employer takes from the worker.

If your boss was not keeping this profit, the factory would shut down. The profit is used to invest, which is mandatory to improve the factory and keep it fueled. Another part is diverted to stockholders, among which is your retirement fund, because those stockholders previously invested in the company to buy the machines you are using.

Even in a communist system investments will remain needed, you cannot seize this. What you can seize and "share" is very large houses, luxury goods, etc. But this does not amount to that much.

I am not saying that no one takes money from you or that the system is fair. I am saying however that the system is vastly more complicated than "profit = stolen" and "wealth = can be taken and spent in iphones", an that equality would not change things that much (it would be seizeable - provided you could keep the same efficiency - but not that much).
By mikema63
#14408983
The card system is fundamentally the same as money, you can buy what you want with it without restriction. In essence it is an extremely extended form of welfare where you income from a company is replaced with an income from the government.

Very likely, at least to begin with, people will want to rip your head off your vertebrae and re-instigate capitalism. Nothing that can't be solved with a big pack of guns, isn't it?


Not every problem needs to be solved via killing dissenters.

You wouldn't want to suddenly try to shock treat an economy into a different system, looked what happened to Russia when they tried to immediately change from socialism to full capitalism.

If you people want authoritarians to tell you what to do and what you can have why don't you all go to prison? Prisons are in practice what you want in your ideals. Surely we don't all need to go to prison though and no one could afford to keep a prison economy going without a real economy to leech off to subsidise it.


I'm not telling anyone what they can or can't have, I'm simply setting a limit on the total amount of stuff, rationed according to their production costs vs. the persons allotment.

In fact, I can't see how its different than the current system in the regard of personal choice to the consumer.

as for hammertan

The energy spent in production per human today is dozens of times those of human beings. So our production is in the order of dozens of times higher. Not millions. Consider that you are the proud owner of a hundred of slaves.


People in the paleolithic era didn't have the benefit of our social organizations, numbers, or even the technology that goes into even starting to produce something better than a rock tied to a stick.

If you want to get rid of your dependency to the consumerist society, go live in the woods by yourself.


Thats not even an argument, if you think something is bad you should oppose it, not run away.

What you want is the benefits of this organization, without its inconveniences


We want an entirely different organization, one that we believe will be an improvement.

If your boss was not keeping this profit, the factory would shut down.


The workers own the factory.

The profit is used to invest, which is mandatory to improve the factory and keep it fueled.


Only if you pretend that the owners don't get an enormous amount of that money. Keeping a company running is a cost, profit is revenue beyond costs, and expansion can still be done at the decision of the workers.

Another part is diverted to stockholders, among which is your retirement fund, because those stockholders previously invested in the company to buy the machines you are using.


Because the majority of investors are retirement funds.
We are aware of what the stockholders own, capital, we are merely saying that its the workers who should own it.

Even in a communist system investments will remain needed, you cannot seize this.


Why can't the government invest?

What you can seize and "share" is very large houses, luxury goods, etc. But this does not amount to that much.


If the government owns the companies, or the workers do, they can produce goods. Why cant either produce things to share as needed?
#14409034
Harmattan wrote:The energy spent in production per human today is dozens of times those of human beings.


I don't understand this.

Harmattan wrote:The added value (product's price minus resources' price) per capita and per year in the US is 50k$ (35k€). This means that with an equal distribution of wealth you could spend no more than 50k$ per year, minus your contribution to public services.


Assuming we kept whatever weird pseudo-capitalist elements you're proposing, I would get three times my current salary per year. What a nightmarish society I've painted myself into! Please, can you propose something where I work every day of the week at three jobs so I can have a third of what you're thinking I'm proposing?

Harmattan wrote:This contribution typically amounts to 30% to 50% of the added value.


This is totally just arbitrary and made up. Most taxes are somewhere between 15-20%. I would still be put at three times my current salary.

So in an equalitarian state with socialized medicine and such, you would find yourself with no more than 25k$ (15k€) per capita and per year


Even if we go with your numbers, I'm really making about the same amount of money, we've ended poverty, we have no starvation, and we have full democracy on a practical ground. Sign me up.

If you want to get rid of your dependency to the consumerist society, go live in the woods by yourself.


Image

f your boss was not keeping this profit, the factory would shut down. The profit is used to invest, which is mandatory to improve the factory and keep it fueled. Another part is diverted to stockholders, among which is your retirement fund, because those stockholders previously invested in the company to buy the machines you are using.


This is all a system people made up. A lot of it with good reason. But to pretend this is the way things have always been and ever shall be is simply such a naive approach that there is nothing to be added.

I am saying however that the system is vastly more complicated than "profit = stolen" and "wealth = can be taken and spent in iphones",


Which is why we analyze the given situation instead of pretend that God himself handed down a system that can never possibly be changed.
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By Harmattan
#14409065
mikema63 wrote:The card system is fundamentally the same as money, you can buy what you want with it without restriction.

Ok, it was unclear given what that you mentioned wartime and such. Then what is the difference between your currency and our currencies? Yours has a limited lifespan?

Not every problem needs to be solved via killing dissenters.

You would face a radical opposition. They're going to sit in the middle of the street and prevent your country to work, prevent supermarkets to get stuff, electricity to be generated, etc. You will have to use force, whether you imprison or kill dissenters.

People in the paleolithic era didn't have the benefit of our social organizations, numbers, or even the technology that goes into even starting to produce something better than a rock tied to a stick.

It does not matter: industrialization is not about iphones, it is about houses, heating and abundance of food. And all of that is a nearly a mere matter of energy. The difference between a rock to open a skull and a brick house? The energy to cut and transport those rocks. The difference between a few strawberries you just picked and fields that extend up to the horizon? The energy to seed, garden and harvest.

This is why we it can be said that our productivity is not millions of times higher but a few dozens of times.

The workers own the factory. (...) Why can't the government invest?

It seems like we do have a communication problem.

Today, about 70%-80% of the added value goes to the employees and taxes. The rest goes to :
* Investments. You can replace them by a worker council who will invest the same amounts to the same tasks.
* Stockholders/executives who will invest money elsewhere. You can replace them by a governement that will seize the same amounts from the workers and invest them elsewhere.
* Stockholders/executives who will use money to buy big houses, travels and diamonds.
* Stockholders who are fueled by your money and will give it back to you in due time.

See what I mean?
* You cannot cut the first two kinds of expenses. You can change who controls (government or workers rather than boss/stockholders) but it will not make the workers richer.
* The fourth already goes to the employees' pockets.
* Only remains the third part: what is currently spent in big houses and luxury goods for executives and stockholders. The manpower currently used to produce those goods could be used to profit to your workers instead. But it only amounts to a few percents of the added value! And it is likely that your new system will hurt the efficiency more than this.


All of those who expect to become richer by spoiling the riches are wrong, you would end up at best at the same level (and poorer if your methods imply any efficiency loss, which is the case with communism). The legitimate reasons to spoil the riches are moral and power: to end schocking inequalities and to prevent some people to get too powerful and disrupt democracy. But it will not make you richer.


Because the majority of investors are retirement funds.

Yes. Bill Gates is a dwarf when compared to the lifetime's savings of one billion of westerners. The dominating stockholders are paid with you money to defend your profits! The aging of the population is actually the first driver behind the dominance of the financial world during the past decades, because all of those people started to flow thousands of billions to the financial markets in order to cover their retirement and healthcare. And this caused the volume of the financial transactions to explode (that and the monetary changes after the official ending of the gold standard, when the dollar emerged as a goddamn reserve currency), and with that the remuneration of those markets (a few decades ago the average trader was a simple and poorly paid employee because there was not that much money in the system).

So, yes, the masters of this tyranny are... us. This is how stupid and perverse the system is.

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