[ihavenoname]

Do you agree? Or do you think he was a good communist?

[Ymir]

He was a genuine communist.

[MB.]

Hmm.... how to respond?

Lets see... Never bring up Stalin in a communist forum, or doom yourself to an eternity of hearing debates about Trotsky and Uncle Joe.

Anyway, personnaly, Stalin was nowhere near the 'evil dictator' people make him out to be. In my mind, it is people like Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, and Pinochet who are the trully evil men of the world. Stalin, though not the man to whom I look up to (see my Avatar for further details), was indeed a great man.

[Ixa]

Do you agree? Or do you think he was a good communist?

I disagree with you. He was more than a good comuninist. He was a Great Teacher of the Proletariat with truly limitless genius, a man whose only flaw was his extreme modesty. He was not only one of the greatest Communists in history, but one of the greatest men - regardless of political orientation - of all time.

Yet, it must be stated, if he were born 50 years later or 50 years before he was actually born, he might have very well been little more than a mere non-entity. Social conditions, constantly changing, are that which produce great men such as Great Comrade Joseph Stalin.

[smashthestate]

Umm...

Are all of you communists forgetting the Ukrainian Famine?

The dreadful famine that engulfed Ukraine, the northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River area in 1932-1933 was the result of Joseph Stalin's policy of forced collectivization. The heaviest losses occurred in Ukraine, which had been the most productive agricultural area of the Soviet Union. Stalin was determined to crush all vestiges of Ukrainian nationalism. Thus, the famine was accompanied by a devastating purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia and the Ukrainian Communist party itself. The famine broke the peasants' will to resist collectivization and left Ukraine politically, socially, and psychologically traumatized.

The policy of all-out collectivization instituted by Stalin in 1929 to finance industrialization had a disastrous effect on agricultural productivity. Nevertheless, in 1932 Stalin raised Ukraine's grain procurement quotas by forty-four percent. This meant that there would not be enough grain to feed the peasants, since Soviet law required that no grain from a collective farm could be given to the members of the farm until the government's quota was met. Stalin's decision and the methods used to implement it condemned millions of peasants to death by starvation. Party officials, with the aid of regular troops and secret police units, waged a merciless war of attrition against peasants who refused to give up their grain. Even indispensible seed grain was forcibly confiscated from peasant households. Any man, woman, or child caught taking even a handful of grain from a collective farm could be, and often was, executed or deported. Thosewho did not appear to be starving were often suspected of hoarding grain. Peasants were prevented from leaving their villages by the NKVD and a system of internal passports.

The death toll from the 1932-33 famine in Ukraine has been estimated between six million and seven million. According to a Soviet author, "Before they died, people often lost their senses and ceased to be human beings." Yet one of Stalin's lieutenants in Ukraine stated in 1933 that the famine was a great success. It showed the peasants "who is the master here. It cost millions of lives, but the collective farm system is here to stay."

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/famine.html

Hardly seems like a great man to me...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Yet one of Stalin's lieutenants in Ukraine stated in 1933 that the famine was a great success. It showed the peasants "who is the master here. It cost millions of lives, but the collective farm system is here to stay."

And the name of this Lieutenant would be???

Ahh...the great Science Fiction writer...Robert Conquest. I think his stuff rivals Gene Rodonberry's science fiction.

[ZenWilsonian]

I do not think it intelligent that people blame the famine on Uncle Joe. Yes, criminals were starved, but they would not have been had it not been for the famine. When a famine comes, we have better people to feed than kulaks. Ultimately, the famine was natures fault. I don't know of any other leader blamed for the weather.

[smashthestate]

LOL! It had nothing to do with weather, the famine was man-made, and it was a result of Stalin's policy for forced collectivization. Weather had nothing to do with it.

The farmer's refused to give up their private farms for the good of the "collective" and as a result, Stalin starved 7 million of them to death. Go read any book or web site on the internet, you will only find one or two saying it wasn't Stalin's fault.

[Comrade Juanito]

Nooooooo he was not an 'evil evil evil communist'. He was however an evil evil evil dictator. After lenin, communism was never the same, twisted dictatorships.....struggles for power....that such. Stalin just happen to 'seize the throne'. And through all this he killed millions, spread communism and rooted evil! But hey? you gotta love a good villian, i admire stalin for being so evil, i think its cool to have an evil vs evil ie eastern front. Its not the cliche good vs evil.

[Classical Liberal]

Errr...are you sure you want that to be your final post? Even though I'm a Trotskyite, I think that a lot of stuff about Stalin, namely the deaths, are greatly exaggerated. I think a figure in the few miilions (maybe 2 to 4) is a lot more likely than the insane 15 or more during his rule. Even a couple milion to four million is not much when one compares it to the deaths caused by capitalism. Be careful, Comrade Juanito, about what words you use. Replace "communism" with "socialism," and I'll be happier.

[smashthestate]

Creeper, this isn't about communism or capitalism and how many deaths each economic system is responsible for. This thread is about Stalin.

[Classical Liberal]

Stalin...who represents a whole version of socialism. It is partly about economic systems. I was expecting someone to come back again and attack socialism in general. Fortunately you didn't do that, smash. Simply my opinion is that Stalin was a leader who made good and bad choices. That's it. Am I making my whole post about socialism vs. capitalism just by making one reference? I thought most of my post was about Stalin. Is it not?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

LOL! It had nothing to do with weather, the famine was man-made, and it was a result of Stalin's policy for forced collectivization. Weather had nothing to do with it.

And who told you my dear boy?? In fact the shortages were casued by the 2 consecutive drought years...which did not lead to reduced production ONLY in the Ukraine...but most of Central Asia as well.

Now this is where the whole "man made famine by evil Stalin to kill Ukrainians" theory falls appart....the crises extended well into Khazakhistan and Central Asia. Ouch!!!

And it didn't kill millions either...

[smashthestate]

Glad to see you're arguing against just about every historical source in existence. Where do you get all of your insider-information? Please, don't be shy, share the wealth, Tovarish!

Here is over fifty sources which vehemntly disagree with your argument that the famine was purely a natural disaster:

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/bibliography/

Here are ten more sources:

http://www.ukar.org/famine.shtml

[Commander Ikari]

Comrades, we should all respect each other's perceptions and viewpoints of Comrade Stalin's contribution to communism. However, it is of my own ideological standpoint that Stalin's ruthlessness and unnecessary purges of the Red Army and Soviet citizenry combined with his disregard for the welfare of the Soviet individual are indicative of his isolation from TRUE communism.

Although it must be acknowledged that the Nazi scourge and European fascism were eliminated underneath the Soviet leader's guise and the Red Arm'y jackboot, I think that it is the likes of Comrade Lenin and Trotsky who truly epitomise the spirit of communism.

Besides, it was Trostky, not Stalin who Lenin favoured as his political successor... at least HE knew what was coming!

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Here is over fifty sources which vehemntly disagree with your argument that the famine was purely a natural disaster:

LOL...well maybe if you took the time to see form where you were getting your sources...you'd know better (but I wouldn't expect you to know better)

Lets take a look at one of those sources...picked totally at random from that list...

"The Black Deeds of the Kremlin: a white book", S.O. Pidhainy, Editor-In-Chief, (Toronto: Ukrainian Association of Victims of Russian-Communist Terror, 1953), (Vol. 1 Book of testimonies. Vol. 2. The Great Famine in Ukraine in 1932-1933).

Hmm...the Ukrainian Association of Victims of Russian-Communist Terror??? Yes a very objective source. Did they remember to tell you their members are former Bandera men who worked for the SS and slaughtered Jews??

Maybe someone should form the Jewish Association of Ukrainian Association of Victims of Russian-Communist Terror...Terror.

There is a very simple reason why there are 56,000 books written on a ficticious "famine"...and why there are 5 written against it...CIA has a lot of money...


I ask this question sometimes...if CNN did not report it...did it really happen?? The opposite is true...if CNN reported it...did it really happen??

Stories of this "famine" by Stalin to kill Ukrainians first appeared in the 30s in Hitler's NAZI press...brought to him by Ukrainian fascists who escaped outside of the USSR...adn then fabricated stories against the Soviet Union. Than it was picked by William Hearst (biggest journalism tychoon in the US for decades...now you know why so many publications) ...who wrote fake articles by fake journalists who had never been to the Ukraine. In the 50s the Ukrainian fascists who cooperated with the Nazis and escaped the USSR came to the US and wrote many more books...with CIA money...about these ficticious events.

These same people were writing books about 40 million prisoner and 60 million dead...and 10 millio prisoners in 1989 (and yet when the prison doors opened...no one came out).

A LOT of shit was written...NONE of it by people had had ANY FREAKING CLUE about what happened in the Ukraine...and NONE by people who had even the slightest interest in objectivity.

As I said...the natural events in the Ukraine were not limited to the Ukraine...but spread throughout Central Asia. Also there were typhoid and malarya epidemics at the same time (common in those years anywhere in the world) which killed a lot of people.

Insider-informtation?? I get it from a little thing called common sense...Very few people have access to that information. [/quote]

[smashthestate]

Tovarish, you keep saying this whole famine was ficticious? How can you say that? Do you also believe that Hitler's holocaust was fake? When you have millions of witnesses, you tend to believe them over the few people who deny it.

By the way, I see you are denying that one book at an objective source...well, you've got 49 more to pick from on that page, and thousands more not listed.

What does the CIA have to do with this? Can I see some documented proof?

I've got some news for you, common sense isn't good enough, pal. People aren't going to believe a word you say, just because you say it's true. Don't you understand that?

I have presented nothing but documented historical and first-person accounts of this famine. Even people in the government, who were close to Stalin, said it was completely the result of their policy for forced collectivization. You can say it was all a vast CIA consipiracy, I have no problem with that, but at least present SOME proof to back up your words. I know you're smart enough for that.

You better have some better way to disprove all this evidence besides common sense, cause that just doesn't cut it. Anyone who believes you because you say you have "common sense" on the subject, is just as stupid as the person blathering out opinions with no factual back up.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

You better have some better way to disprove all this evidence besides common sense,

Oh I do becasue I'v gone over it about 50,000 times before with other people....but I just don't think its worth going over it with you.

When you have millions of witnesses, you tend to believe them over the few people who deny it.

The problem is..with the Ukrainian "holocaust"....there are NO eyewitnesses. As you correctly point out the jewish Holocaust...thousands of survivors and thousands of photos to back it up. When it comes to Ukraine...not a SINGLE photo and not a single eyewitness.

The only photos and eyewitnesses of the Ukraine have been proven to be fakes. The photos being shown of it were proven to be actually from the 1922 Volga famine...and the eyewitness accounts were proven to be from people who never were in the Ukraine and were plainly lying.

Thats the problem....there simply is NOTHING to verify it happened besides the words of these Ukrainian "refugees".


Wen Iraq invaded Kuqwait...Kuwaitis said Saddam killed babies in hospitals. The world believed it...it turned out it was a fake story invented by the Kuwaitis to make Saddam look bad.

And incidentally thats where the CIA comes in my friend...who do you think pays for these people to write such shit?? The tooth fary??

[smashthestate]

So basically what you're saying is you have no proof...

Once again you blurt out more accusations with not one reference. Good job! Why don't you want to prove the facts to *me*? Do you hate me or something? I want to know the facts just as much as you. If you do really have some proof against this famine, then I'd sincerely love to see it, because I will believe proof or at least evidence, a lot more than empty accusations.

There is a very simple reason why there are 56,000 books written on a ficticious "famine"...and why there are 5 written against it...CIA has a lot of money...

Umm...the CIA didn't exist until 1947, and most books written on the famine were published before that date. So what exactly do you mean?

Anyone else involved in this thread going to believe Tovarish just because he says it's true?

And incidentally thats where the CIA comes in my friend...who do you think pays for these people to write such shit?? The tooth fary??

Once again, I will be more than willing to consider your side of the story if you at least provide me with SOME evidence or documentation. Is that too much to ask? This request goes for all the other accusations you've made without proof.

***

I am being sincerely honest here. I want nothing more than to know the real truth, and I am willing to listen, as long as you provide me with some solid evidence or documentation. I am being honest, Tovarish, I am honestly interested in your side of the story, I just would like some evidence. Anyone who believes another person just because they say it, whether it's you, me, or anyone else, is stupid. Wouldn't you agree with that?

[MB.]

The problem with the famine is the massed amount of anti-stalin propaganda that circulates around it, meaning that it is indeed very hard to find a nuetral source on the subject.

Lets put it this way: It is a well known fact, that, through industrial murder, the Nazis exterminated roughly six million European Jews: there are photos, eye whitnesses, vidoes etc. This is all very easy to prove, obvuisly.

However, it is also believed commenly that the Nazis used human fat to make soap, which is simply not true. This single concept had sparked endless contriversy.

With the famine, your dealing with a massive scale, in which very little evidence is provided, and the numbers of death differ greatly due to peasent populations. Add to that anti-stalinst propaganda and you've got a very difficult and contriversal topic to deal with.

I think its safe to say that the famine DID occure- but in what scale is very hard to determine.

In my honest opinion, I fail to see how the number of deaths could excede that of Nazi Germany's genocide.