[QatzelOk]

Yesterday, my friend Mustafa and I walked from his house to Canadian Tire to buy some plastic sleds for his kids. It was really icy on the roads and he only lives a few blocks away, so it was a nice walk.

As we were crossing Sherbrooke, a Ford Explorer made a last-minute right turn into the parking lot, and slid within inches of crushing Mustafa's foot.

So he banged on the side window, and went charging after the Explorer's driver in the Canadian Tire parking lot late afternoon darkness.

The guy was a middle-aged Quebecois guy, and he gets out and says, "What the hell are you guys doing? I had the green. Etc."

Mustafa was so mad that he couldn't speak French. He just kept calling him an asshole in English (Quebecois also use the word "asshole"). I told him, "Hey, you could have crushed our feet. That truck's not a weapon, buddy. etc."

After the guy went off to find parking, Mustafa told me that I hadn't been "brave" enough, and that he was going to go "teach the guy a lesson."

We go into the store, and I leave him at the cash to exchange something, while I go to look at sleds.

When I get back, he waves me to go outside into the parking lot. He takes me to a base of a large streetlight, and digs in the snow. There, he shows me a windshield wiper that he has ripped off the Explorer.

I was pissed off. I told him that he was only inviting more revenge, and that this guy would NOT learn a lesson from this, only that Mustafa was a savage. I mean, this guy probably lives near Mustafa. He'll probably see him around.

Moose told me I was bringing him down, and I later changed my mind and decided that maybe he did the right thing.

Did he?

[Eauz]

Yeh, I've had some major issues with drivers of vehicles. Just yesterday, when a number of us got of the bus and walked at the cross walk, this car decides that it can go through the red light. He ended up having to stop for all of us crossing and was blocking traffic at the same time. However, there really isn't much use in just talking about situations we've had involving dangerous drivers and such. The real problem is that there really is no enforcement of laws, especially against pedestrians, unless they are seriously injured or killed. The guy who owns the Explorer will probably not learn his lesson from your friend taking the wiper, however, there really isn't much else that pedestrians can actually do, since enforcement is based on police presence and proof. If this actually went to some court (I doubt it would), it would be a he said, she said situation and nothing would really get done.

[QatzelOk]

However, there really isn't much use in just talking about situations we've had involving dangerous drivers and such.

No, and that's why I was wondering if you thought Mustafa's "direct justice" was possibly a way of avoiding indirectly subsidizing antisocial behavior, like we seem to do in more passive cultures like our own.

I at first thought that he had done something terrible and misguided.

But then I wondered how people can react so calmly to the mortal attack on their freedom - the freedom to just walk from point A to point B without being killed or need something amputated.

That Explorer could have easily injured Mustafa - a father of three - for the rest of his life. Shouldn't someone react fairly strongly to that kind of aggression? Or is it better to - like me - make a speech and then wait for the government to "crack down" on pointless violence on my behalf.

Was Mustafa right in confiscating a windshield wiper and burying it in the snow?

[NYYS]

I don't think this necessarily is a rant against cars, just asshole drivers, which everyone hates. That being said, you can't just go break shit because someone did something you didn't like. That only works in foreign policy, not day-to-day interactions with other people.

[Oxymoron]

Mustafa representing the Palestinian people in your story takes revenge upon this driver representing the Israelis for a percieved dishonor. How dare that driver come so close to "his" territory, that infidel needed to be taught a lesson.

[QatzelOk]

percieved dishonor

I don't think it was really a "perceptual" issue, Oxy. I don't think media could have spun Mustafa's "foot-crushing" back to him in a way that would make him feel as fulfilled as the instant revenge he took.

He claimed this act of returned violence would "teach that guy a lesson."
Is that true, in your opinion? Will the loss of a windshield wiper really force that driver to reconsider safety issues? Or is "turning the other cheek" really the best way to a less violent tomorrow?

[Eauz]

First, I doubt this was an issue with someone being a bad driver. Even good drivers have days when they are rushed and end up breaking a law of the road. No one is perfect in that sense.

Second, I doubt this driver actually learnt a lesson and will be more careful in the future, since he is now pissed off and has to purchase a new wiper. However, we still don't see a solution to the problem that there is no enforcement of violations that are not reported or just ignored. The so called bad drivers, as NYYS puts it, are allowed to continue on their way violating laws against pedestrians, especially in this vechicle-centric society.

[QatzelOk]

Second, I doubt this driver actually learnt a lesson and will be more careful in the future, since he is now pissed off and has to purchase a new wiper.

Would it have been better to have done nothing at all?

And wouldn't society "learn" more if members of it DID take revenge against bad behavior?

Imagine a society where - if you almost knocked someone down with your car, you would be almost GUARANTEED to lose a windshield wiper. Wouldn't this kind of systematic punishment begin to deter some kinds of crime?

[Oxymoron]

Imagine a society where - if you almost knocked someone down with your car, you would be almost GUARANTEED to lose a windshield wiper. Wouldn't this kind of systematic punishment begin to deter some kinds of crime?

How about if your almost knocked down, you almost damage some ones property. Sounds good to you sport?

[QatzelOk]

Not at all.

The act of threatening someone with violent assault is a crime in itself.

The only reason the driver didn't damage Mustafa permanently is sheer luck.

[Oxymoron]

The act of threatening someone with violent assault is a crime in itself.

Was the threat planned or a by product of an innocent mistake or carelessness ?

The only reason the driver didn't damage Mustafa permanently is sheer luck.

So what exactly is the drivers crime and why does Mustafa have a right to be judge, jury and executionare?

[QatzelOk]

So what exactly is the drivers crime and why does Mustafa have a right to be judge, jury and executionare?

The driver's crime is gross negligence that threatens pedestrian safety.

It is a hideous crime that has many victims. People don't walk, and children aren't free to play outside because drivers like this one are all around us. They have made our built environment an unsafe war-zone, and they have killed street-life and childhood in the process.

The principal cause of this crime is lack of recognition of victims.

So, Mustafa made the driver VERY AWARE of the presence of victims. This is in contrast to most of us who simply suffer in obesity in our hermetically-sealed homes.

[Oxymoron]

The driver's crime is gross negligence that threatens pedestrian safety.

Perhaps it was more pedestrian carelessness.

It is a hideous crime that has many victims. People don't walk, and children aren't free to play outside because drivers like this one are all around us. They have made our built environment an unsafe war-zone, and they have killed street-life and childhood in the process.

Take it up with your local goverment.

The principal cause of this crime is lack of recognition of victims.

The victim is the driver who had to pay money to fix his mirror, and Im not sure Mustafa knows what that might do to an individuals budget.

So, Mustafa made the driver VERY AWARE of the presence of victims. This is in contrast to most of us who simply suffer in obesity in our hermetically-sealed homes.

Well Im glad that each citizen has a right to create his own sets of laws and enforce them. What a great place that would be to live in, perhaps the drivers should go break Mustafas nose so that he would be very aware of his crime.

[QatzelOk]

Perhaps it was more pedestrian carelessness.

If you think that pedestrians should always be on the lookout for instant death from vehicles, then you don't believe in freedom at all. Only the abuse of power as is represented by the automobile, and all the money that it has unleashed into our economies.

Take it up with your local goverment.

Like I said, if sitting at home with a bag of nachos and a beer is your idea of living, then letting things like this slide fits right into your lifestyle. Any tyrant would like this kind of "let the government take care of it." Your attitude is perfect for tyranny.

The victim is the driver who had to pay money to fix his mirror, and Im not sure Mustafa knows what that might do to an individuals budget.

Mirror? It was his windshield wiper.

And the cost of replacing a person's foot is worth an infinite number of these. The wiper is only a part of a machine - a tool. While Mustafa's foot is part of his human body. Do you see that humans are worth more than machines, Oxy? Do you understand this?

[Oxymoron]

If you think that pedestrians should always be on the lookout for instant death from vehicles, then you don't believe in freedom at all. Only the abuse of power as is represented by the automobile, and all the money that it has unleashed into our economies.

Yes if your out in the world its best if you dont have your head in the clouds. There are dangers all around us if we are not careful. The car is a dangerous instrument but also vital to our modern world. I know you would love to live in the stone age, but unfortunately you wouldnt surivive because you and your friend Mustafa would try to seek retribution from a uncaring speeding Wooly Mammot.

Like I said, if sitting at home with a bag of nachos and a beer is your idea of living, then letting things like this slide fits right into your lifestyle. Any tyrant would like this kind of "let the government take care of it." Your attitude is perfect for tyranny.

Unlike you I dont believe in Anarchy. I think a representative Republic is a much superior type of goverment, where each citizen does not have a right to create his own laws and punishements.

Mirror? It was his windshield wiper.

Im sorry, windshiled wiper.

And the cost of replacing a person's foot is worth an infinite number of these. The wiper is only a part of a machine - a tool. While Mustafa's foot is part of his human body. Do you see that humans are worth more than machines, Oxy? Do you understand this?

I understand this but his foot is perfectly fine, while the windshield wiper is destroyed. Do you understand that people dont have a right to live by vendettas?

[QatzelOk]

I know you would love to live in the stone age, but unfortunately you wouldnt surivive because you and your friend Mustafa would try to seek retribution from a uncaring speeding Wooly Mammot.

This is one of the problems with media. It leads to a worldview that has been teinted with a commercial agenda. You are worried about becoming the Flintstones if you don't have the latest iTool. This is problematic as a way of seeing the world. It's a type of fabricated blindness to alternatives to commercial products.

Here, you are unable to see the value of legitimate self-defense, and ask that Mustafa rely on the state apparatus to protect his feet from being crushed by motor vehicles. That same state - as we all know - is owned by the companies who make the foot-crushing products. So what you are really suggesting is that he do nothing to change anything. Perhaps he should just stay home, or buy a vehicle himself. You are suggesting that he not be an individual at all, just an ineffective consumer like the driver who almost crushed his foot.

Do you understand that people dont have a right to live by vendettas?

This wasn't a Vendetta. There was no "contract" to rectify some family dishonor. A guy almost crushed my friend's foot, so he ripped off a windshield wiper. Though I am usually against revenge as a way of life, I do feel that if people naturally responded to the violence around them, there would be less of it. Controlling your natural urge to STOP DANGEROUS THREATS TO YOUR LIVELIHOOD just leads to an infantile society, who in turn empower brutal dictators and a violent state apparatus.

[Oxymoron]

This is one of the problems with media. It leads to a worldview that has been teinted with a commercial agenda. You are worried about becoming the Flintstones if you don't have the latest iTool. This is problematic as a way of seeing the world. It's a type of fabricated blindness to alternatives to commercial products.

The car is not an Itool, it is a vital part of our modern civilization. What is the alternative Qatz I never heard you come up with any sort of idea what your world should look like.

Here, you are unable to see the value of legitimate self-defense, and ask that Mustafa rely on the state apparatus to protect his feet from being crushed by motor vehicles.

Its not self defence as the driver did not touch Mustafa, you are prosecuting a thought crime.

That same state - as we all know - is owned by the companies who make the foot-crushing products. So what you are really suggesting is that he do nothing to change anything. Perhaps he should just stay home, or buy a vehicle himself. You are suggesting that he not be an individual at all, just an ineffective consumer like the driver who almost crushed his foot.

How about writing down his plate number and calling the police. If there is a crime then let the proper authorities handle it. If we allow people to act and carry out justice by themselves we will have anarchy.

[tallpaul]

Let me see if I get this correctly.

Your friend was almost injured, so he ripped a windshield wiper off someone's car.

It's nice to know we don't have the market cornered on psychopaths in the US!

[ThereBeDragons]

If I almost blew your head off with a shotgun but missed, I would expect you to get a little miffed.

[tallpaul]

Nice hyperbole