[Gletkin]

Comedy Central on a well worn theme.
Lovely examples of partisan sectarianism between socialist groups and libertard rhetoric. Unfortunately, ComCen did a little "smearing" of their own by calling Root a "conservative political commentator". Guy's been a Libertarian Party member since 2007.

[The American Lion]

Most Americans don't know what Socialism means. All they know that if it's a liberal, it must be an socialist.

[ray188]

"Most Americans don't know what Socialism means. All they know that if it's a liberal, it must be an socialist."

That is an excellent point. Labels are thrown around quite (dare I say) liberally with little regard to definitions. To me there are two demarkation points between the major political philosophies warring for the hearts and minds.

1. Do you trust the self regulating free market or the government to control the economy?
2. Do you believe in the individual vs the collective for individual decisions?

Obviously, there are an infinite number of points from one extreme to the other in each. But, the basic philosophy an individual holds regarding these questions pretty much defines his position with only the degree up for discussion.

[Daktoria]

Ray, I think it goes deeper than that.

1) Do you believe people's identities come internally or externally?

2) Do you believe people can think before they act, or only learn from experience?

This is usually a good way to detect Reagan Democrats and Rockefeller Republicans who aren't bona fide conservatives, but are only in it for the money in the moment.

It's also a good way to detect Blue Dog Democrats who are really just disgruntled with the lack of social values practiced by business.

[ray188]

"Ray, I think it goes deeper than that."

I could not agree more. But, as I said, any discussion needs a mutually agreed on starting point - then you can start to put some meat on the bones.

"1) Do you believe people's identities come internally or externally?"

Not any easy question - certainly not either/or. I believe that a person's belief system starts with the family. Then it is refined by personal experience. Finally, some people further their definition of appropriate governemntal action through the thinking process as to what might work, negatives, and potential for success. But, sadly, some people do their further defining based on what "feels right".

"2) Do you believe people can think before they act, or only learn from experience?"

I thing the above covers that.

This is a strange discussion because if one reads the "Communist Manefesto" and then listens to the President's own words - his answers as to the needs of our Nation and it's people - there can be no question as to which side of the continuum he falls.

Does that mean that he is a "card carrying socialist"? Of course not - I don't even know what that means. He is however a decent, sincere man who just happens to believe that the solutions lie in more government control of the economy and the people than we have seen in a President in quite a while.

[Daktoria]

I don't really buy Obama being a decent sincere man. There's a lot of stories of him being a conniving bastard in legislative negotiations.

That said, many businessmen sympathize with cutthroat conduct. The institutional character of Rockefeller Republicanism is communist.

Not any easy question - certainly not either/or. I believe that a person's belief system starts with the family.

Do you believe a person's identity comes from beliefs themselves, or the believing process?

I certainly agree that family is paramount because that's the primary situation of learning about duty of care, but it isn't the family itself which teaches us this. It's the relationships established within the family that do.

Then it is refined by personal experience.

Well to be clear, experiences are necessary when it comes to concrete familiarity, but experience doesn't teach us abstract models.

Concrete familiarity only helps us in particular locations. Get pushed out of your element, and you're cooked.

Finally, some people further their definition of appropriate governemntal action through the thinking process as to what might work, negatives, and potential for success.

I'm kind of confused here.

Are you saying government should act according to the best possibilities, or that government should act according to contingency planning?

But, sadly, some people do their further defining based on what "feels right".

Do you believe emotion and intuition are the same thing?

[ray188]

"cut-throat, etc." - hey, Dak, the guy is a politician. Let's not confuse how he accomplishes his objectives with what those objectives are. To me, his objectives lean strongly towards the socialist side of the equation, and that, I believe, is the topic.

"Do you believe a person's identity comes from beliefs themselves, or the believing process?"

It's all part of the total package. The beliefs will give one the answer but then many other factors come into play - morality, self-interest, etc. Example - a person is hungry. One ideology will feed him while knowing that he is creating dependency. The other side will leave him hungry with the intent of "nudging" him towrards self-sufficiency. Is one evil and the other saintly? Most would say "yes" but I believe neither is "evil". It's just a "right" and a "wrong" answer.

"Get pushed out of your element, and you're cooked."

True - thereby stating the need for education, not indoctination and thinking, not "feeling".

"Are you saying government should act according to the best possibilities, or that government should act according to contingency planning?"

Actually, I was referring to a rational thought process for people. But now that you mention it - it would be nice of our elected officials used a rational process for decision making. 1) Define the problem; 2) determine a solution; 3) study the solution with an eye to the down-sides, 4) decide on a solution with the max positives and the min negatives. There usually isn't a "perfect" solution but this approach can give the best solution.

"Do you believe emotion and intuition are the same thing?"

Good question - you have forced me to scratch my head and think a bit. Thank you.
Probably the answer is "yes and no". I believe that emotion can play a part in intuition, but intuition includes more - it includes knowledge. However, for the person who would say, "Don't try to confuse me with the fact - my mind is made up" they are the same thing because that person intentionally blocks any facts or knowledge that contradicts what the "feel" is right. To these people, class warrfare and "it isn't fair" make sense and they tend to vote accordingly.

[orcmaster23]

Obama is a liberal. Stop labeling people. This is what makes me not proud to not be an American, people labeling each other like this. We could all call Ron Paul a Fascist and no one would know the truth.

[ray188]

True - labels, whiloe could be useful, are wasted with merely tossing them around like blowing on a dry dandilion.

Your Ron Paul example is perfect. Considering that Ron Paul stands for minimum government while Fascism is total control (in the context of private ownership and heavy regulation) of the means of production certainly makes the case for more definition and less labels.

[Someneck]

Ron Paul appears to have an attractive agenda because we want to do whatever we will - don't we ?
Then we learn more and he says the proprietor of, say a shop, should be able to ban people based on their color etc
He is not just the ultimate libertarian but the ultimate promoter of property rights

When I came to the US from the Yorkshire Dales, the first thing I noticed was the lack of footpaths across each and every field. In the US, Private property comes first, then guns, then god. I have been banged up here in Madison since March and the parks are just pathetic over sized prison exercise yards. Yes I am off back to the Dales. I go back 4 times a year - just for some liberty.

So libertarianism is off my agenda

My dad worked for the co-op for 40 years so I have seen socialism and unionism and I don't like that - it is constricting and can be as oppressive as any boss man. I went to East Germany BEFORE the wall came down and I hated communism/socialism

I have seen right wing shop owners/gun nuts/fat cats/ freemasons and they are selfish and divisive and cold and uncaring

Conclusion:

To my eternal shame, that only leaves me one position and that is a Blairite ! URRGGHH !
Actually, let me quickly refine that and say I don't like his spin and his real politik with George Bush, but his purported centrist stance is where I am. A mixed economy, no overbloated government and strict regulations on predator banks and other companies.
Universal health care

That actually puts me with the majority of the UK population which is quite pleasant, and I suspect that political position is where the US is headed, albeit at a slower pace. the US has always trailed the UK in social development issues, but has always maintained the same course as the UK

Slavery/votes for women/Pensions/ and now universal heath care - the US is sucked along in the vortex of 1st world development even though it claims that all its development is home grown. Executions will end in the next 20 years or so.

Ok now, the trouble is that 80% of people cannot absorb this info or make even these distinctions which are not all that fine. That means that 80% of people NEED labels to try and make sense of politics.

80% of the people who call Obama a socialist could not even make a rudimentary stab at defining the word or listing what a socialist believes, as distinct from a liberal democrat - which is what Obama is.

My politics align perfectly with Obama and I really dislike Socialism

[jackbo487]

This issue has been bothering me for some time - on a personal level I loathe catchall phrasing like "OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST!!!", and rather prefer well-thought-out considerations from both sides.

That's probably why I found this debate particularly interesting -

http://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/2012/ ... st-or-not/

I'm more inclined to side with the "no he's not!" argument, but then again I support "Obamacare" (also another nebulous term I'm not fond of using).

[Lightman]

"I'm from the USSR - I know a commie when I sees 'im!"

"Immigrated at age three."

[Conscript]

"I'm from the USSR - I know a commie when I sees 'im!"

"Immigrated at age three."

What an awful article, it proves nothing. I guess socialists might as well stop talking about revolution because liberals used to be revolutionaries, such is the 'forward' logic. I'd love see a conservative prove to anyone but the choir obama is a socialist, or even a social democrat.

This part was hilarious:

Born in Moscow, Russia, Julia Gorin grew weary of food shortages, low living standards and constant run-ins with the KGB

What an accomplishment. At three I was growing weary of my crib.

Poor emigres still trying to seem relevant and capitalize on their 'defections'.

[Someneck]

What an awful article, it proves nothing. I guess socialists might as well stop talking about revolution because liberals used to be revolutionaries, such is the 'forward' logic. I'd love see a conservative prove to anyone but the choir obama is a socialist, or even a social democrat.

This part was hilarious:



What an accomplishment. At three I was growing weary of my crib.

Poor emigres still trying to seem relevant and capitalize on their 'defections'.

So have you found a way out of your crib yet or has it got wifi now ?

I do take your point that the average three year old is not overly concerned with the price of boiled pig's trotters and vodka

[Conscript]

Sorry, was that supposed to be a response? Try again.

I could be in my crib and still manage to be more mature than you.

[Someneck]

Sorry, was that supposed to be a response? Try again.

I could be in my crib and still manage to be more mature than you.

Yet you are the guy who wrote:

Poor emigres still trying to seem relevant and capitalize on their 'defections'.

That doesn't sound a very mature response. It sounds snide and demeaning to a guy who was brought from Russia at age 3

Have you got something against immigrants in general ?

[Conscript]

No, i have something against opportunists. It does sound snide and demeaning, that was the intention. However, i don't think maturity or immaturity factor into it at all.

I have nothing against immigrants. I believe in the dissolution of borders and right of all peoples to culture, not just nationals. OTOH, i have nothing but disdain for opportunist emigres who want to capitalize on their birthplace and the hysteria against it. It's pathetic, especially since 1991.

[Someneck]

No, i have something against opportunists. It does sound snide and demeaning, that was the intention. However, i don't think maturity or immaturity factor into it at all.

I have nothing against immigrants. I believe in the dissolution of borders and right of all peoples to culture, not just nationals. OTOH, i have nothing but disdain for opportunist emigres who want to capitalize on their birthplace and the hysteria against it. It's pathetic, especially since 1991.

That's ok then

Being occasional whacked by the nativists, I am all for Internationalism.

We shall have to see how it goes in the Eurozone before we start dropping all borders.

You have my seal of approval - tick !

How about this for the merging of American/Anglo cultures