[Paradigm]

Among the demands set forth in the Communist Manifesto is "Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country." As I understand it, this goal of abolishing the distinction between town and country had been a part of socialism well before Marx. The issue was actually brought to my attention recently from an anarcho-primitivist perspective(I don't much care for anarcho-primitivism, but they do have some interesting critiques). They criticize civilization as a system based on the growth of cities, which require the importation of resources, which in turn compels them to go to war when those resources are not forthcoming. So I suppose they'd agree with abolishing the distinction between town and country by spreading the population out more equitably. The part about combining agriculture with manufacturing is another matter, however. That seems to be something we already have with big agribusiness, and it's destroying the planet. Can agriculture and industry really be brought together in a way that's sustainable? What kind of landscape would it look like when town and country are no longer divided? How can we accomplish this traditional goal of socialism in the most sustainable, efficient way possible?

[Decky]

Making urban areas self sufficient foodwise would be a good start (this would let us leave the countryside the regreen).

How would this be possible you ask?

http://www.verticalfarm.com/

The Problem

By the year 2050, nearly 80% of the earth's population will reside in urban centers. Applying the most conservative estimates to current demographic trends, the human population will increase by about 3 billion people during the interim. An estimated 109 hectares of new land (about 20% more land than is represented by the country of Brazil) will be needed to grow enough food to feed them, if traditional farming practices continue as they are practiced today. At present, throughout the world, over 80% of the land that is suitable for raising crops is in use (sources: FAO and NASA). Historically, some 15% of that has been laid waste by poor management practices. What can be done to avoid this impending disaster?

This would also eliminate the costs in transporting food to the people and give people control over their own food supply rather than relying on things going smoothly on distant continents.

[Baff]

Industrial farms gain effeciencies of scale.

A big farm produces more food for less than a load of small farms totaling the same landmass.
Co-operative farming goes a long way to alleviate this difference but does not remove it entirely.

[SolarCross]

Industrial farms gain effeciencies of scale.

A big farm produces more food for less than a load of small farms totaling the same landmass.
Co-operative farming goes a long way to alleviate this difference but does not remove it entirely.

Sure but any efficiencies gained from scale are lost again from ever lengthened distribution costs which includes a quality loss as the further food has to travel to get to the person that wants to eat it the older and less fresh it will be when it gets there.

Maybe we could turn out all the world's carrots from a single massive farm the size of Cornwall. Maybe that would be cheapest way to make a carrot but a New Zealander is going to have to pay a massive distribution cost to get to eat it and he won't get fresh carrot. He will get a carrot that had to be picked before it was ripe, irradiated (so it won't rot) and be a like six months old by the time he can eat it.

[Baff]

Not so.

The industrial farms have not packed up and moved to another region of the world. The carrots are still being grown in the same places as before.

The difference is they can afford better machinery/make fuller use of it and don't have to waste space with boundaries etc or hire surplus manpower and can build cheaper storage and processing facilities sharing those overheads over a greater production run, reducing overall costs.

[SolarCross]

The Cornwall carrot superfarm is just an extrapolation of the current trend towards concentration of agricultural production to illustrate a point. You misunderstood me though I didn't challenge that larger farms make production cheaper. I pointed out that with larger farms whilst decreasing production costs simultaneously increase distribution costs and quality losses.
The other end of the farm size spectrum from the cornwall carrot farm is the vegtable patch in the backgarden. Production costs there per unit is relatively high but distribution costs are zero and quality loss is zero also. You don't get fresher veg than veg you eat within minutes of harvesting rather than months.
I am not saying where on the spectrum of farm-size is the sweet spot of optimum efficiency because I don't know. To find that out you would need to do some pretty fancy mathematics on a lot of hard data and even then that would just be an educated guess.

[Baff]

I understood you thanks, I just didn't agree.

The problem with home grown is that a guy who lives on the tenth floor only has a window box to grow in.

Also we have division of labour, where guys who have no love for growing their own, do jobs that people who grow their own have no love for and then trade.


I'd been discussing agricultural efficiency with some ex soviet farmers in Romania last week.
It turns out my own country, the UK is their role model in this. That inch for inch we are the most productive in the world.
Our crop yields are something like 10/20% higher than theirs, or so I was being told by English and Romanian both.

Our model is the industrial/conglomerate farm model.
My own farm is only a small hold of course. There is still room for the lifestyle farmer here. I don't make any money out of it, but I get plenty of fresh produce.

The model we compete against here is the French model. Many more small holders. A model they cannot sustain against our methods without massive CAP subsidy.

That is the way I am led to believe it is from TV shows, news reports and other farmers. No hard science on my part. Just school of life as always.