[Paradigm]

One thing that bugs me when I think about the prospect of a post-capitalist world: In Britain, and several other European countries, feudalism never really disappeared. Capitalism became the main economic force, but remnants of the old system, such as aristocracy and monarchy, still remain. I can't help but wonder if even after capitalism collapses, it will leave similar remnants behind. Unless, of course, we go the French route and bust out the guillotine.

[Soixante-Retard]

Well, it didn't work for the French.

[Paradigm]

Well, it didn't work for the French.

They have no monarchy or aristocracy. I'd say it worked pretty well.

[Decky]

Aye, kill em all and burn the remains with fire so capitalism can never grow back.

[Eauz]

Although the monarchy did not disappear completely, the liberals (in the broad sense) pretty much made it impossible for them to have any actual influence within the society, outside of being a tourist attraction and just being elite welfare bums. I'm not suggesting that the royals of the world have no power, but most of their power has been stripped and the actual control over the society has been minimalised.

With that said, the French way is an excellent option, as is the Soviet way as well.

[Decky]

With that said, the French way is an excellent option, as is the Soviet way as well.

The French way is better.

The Soviets marched the Tsars down to cellars to kill them as if they were criminals murdering people.

The French did it public in the open letting the masses see justice done.

[Eauz]

The French did it public in the open letting the masses see justice done.

North Korea has been doing this for years.

[Decky]

And we all know that is one of the last bastions of sanity in this world (along with Belarus).

[Dagoth Ur]

The Soviets were probably going to keep them alive as captors. It was only the encroaching White Army that forced their hands. There is also evidence that the officer in charge of detaining the Romanovs was the one who decided to off them rather than try to flee with them in tow.

[Preston Cole]

And we all know that is one of the last bastions of sanity in this world (along with Belarus).

Belarus is not about to go back to communism. If anything, it resembles Fascism more than Socialism in its authoritarian nationalism. Nostalgia for communism is actually nostalgia for single-party nationalism, as most commie-nostalgic parties in Eastern Europe suggest: they are socially conservative and nationalist, but reverting to Marxism is the last thing they want. Actual communist parties in Eastern Europe are almost non-existent, as they should be.

[Travesty]

Belarus is not about to go back to communism. If anything, it resembles Fascism more than Socialism in its authoritarian nationalism. Nostalgia for communism is actually nostalgia for single-party nationalism, as most commie-nostalgic parties in Eastern Europe suggest: they are socially conservative, traditionalist and nationalist, but reverting to Marxism is the last thing they want. Actual communist parties in Eastern Europe are almost non-existent, as they should be.

That is exactly Right. And Communists here keep explaining how North Korea is not a Socialist/Marxist state at all and I believe them.

[Someone5]

One thing that bugs me when I think about the prospect of a post-capitalist world: In Britain, and several other European countries, feudalism never really disappeared. Capitalism became the main economic force, but remnants of the old system, such as aristocracy and monarchy, still remain. I can't help but wonder if even after capitalism collapses, it will leave similar remnants behind. Unless, of course, we go the French route and bust out the guillotine.

Are you worried that the US government in the post-capitalist future will appoint a CEO to a company that exists only for ceremonial purposes? Like he's some old fart who gets trotted out twice a year to public events?

[ralfy]

It will but only in remaining situations where there are still surplus resources which can be bought and sold with others in markets. After that....

[JRS1]

I guess the British transformation was longer and more gradual, and therefore less bloody.

Its also a British trait to be calm and calculating to the point where you don't kill off all the well placed, powerful, and best educated of the time in a fit of pique.

And we do like continuity, and are only ever grudgingly deferential. Going back to an all out monarchy wouldn't get support because it would ruin our continuity as a nation.

To say we have feudalism or even a workable "skeleton" aristocracy waiting for capitalism to die is a little over the top. I would never work because we are the least revolutionary people on earth.

[Social_Critic]

After capitalism collapses on Earth it will continue in the Galactic Federation of Planets, so I'm not really worried.

According to my estimate, this will take place in 925 thousand years, when Earth is so full of museums, protected humanity heritage sites, and forest preserves it's going to be more like a state managed Disney World for visitors from other systems to come see their ancient home planet.

The only private enterprises will be companies providing robot maintenance for the actors in historical plays (such as the liberation of the Ganymede settlement from Arcturian space spiders and the signing of the Galactic Declaration of the Rights of Man to be Free from Communism).

I realize some outliers will exist. There will be some earthlings who will, in that far future, insist on having their own unregulated market, including the sale of Boris Yeltsin t-shirts to visitors, and trips to visit a fake New York city submerged under the Atlantic waters.

[Potemkin]

To say we have feudalism or even a workable "skeleton" aristocracy waiting for capitalism to die is a little over the top. I would never work because we are the least revolutionary people on earth.

The British monarchy was tamed in the 17th century, and is now almost completely toothless. The aristocracy is pretty much finished as a ruling class, and has been for the past century or more. Remnants of feudalism still exist in British society, and likely always will, but only as quaint fossils strung together with bits of wire in museums. The British working class are indeed still being exploited and oppressed, but not by monarchs or aristos.

As for the supposed lack of revolutionary spirit in the British people, it certainly didn't seem that way in the 17th century. The trauma of the Civil War, combined with the phlegmatic pragmatism of the British people, meant that the British have emphasised continuity and gradual evolution rather than revolutionary transformation over the past three or four centuries. It's not that we're not potentially a revolutionary people (we have demonstrated the opposite tendency in the past), it's that we're not an excitable people. Rabble rousers don't tend to get very far in Britain.

[JRS1]

As for the supposed lack of revolutionary spirit in the British people, it certainly didn't seem that way in the 17th century. The trauma of the Civil War, combined with the phlegmatic pragmatism of the British people, meant that the British have emphasised continuity and gradual evolution rather than revolutionary transformation over the past three or four centuries. It's not that we're not potentially a revolutionary people (we have demonstrated the opposite tendency in the past), it's that we're not an excitable people. Rabble rousers don't tend to get very far in Britain.

I don't doubt that we have it in us, if necessary. We would prefer not to. I agree with your reasons for this reluctance.

My point being that a throw back to the aristocracy would be seen as a revolution in itself, and not part of a continuous evolution - and as such would never happen.

[Lagrange]

With that said, the French way is an excellent option, as is the Soviet way as well.

So murdering tens of millions of people (including whole families) for their class affiliation is a great option? It's ironic that Stalinists who support democide will criticize capitalists for "exploiting" workers.

[Sceptic]

I think you have to remember that the capitalist class system is significantly more mobile and than feudalism or monarchy and not very nespotic. If we abolished capitalism, how do you envision Bill Gates? A working class vanguard or leader of the International Socialist Worker Party?

Actually the main way for the capitalist class to become entrenched in society is through a dictatorship, Soviet-style, so I guess this is more of a problem for the more authoritarian Marxists.

[ralfy]

Free market capitalism provides material freedom only as long as there is an abundance of resources. This is also the same condition needed for upward mobility and what keeps money propped up. But since most people want more goods and services, then there is no possibility for capitalism to be abolished. What will happen is that it will fall apart due to a resource crunch.