[A_Technocrat]

Hopefully this will bury the notion that Technocracy = Communism.

But I doubt it.

[Anarchocommunist]

i don' t know if i quite get this but, how can there not be scarcity? scarcity will allways exist. the energy used to run the machines will be scarce, and the materials to build the machines and the materials they use to build the things that are no longer scarce. secondly, if we are to depend on machines so much, what happens when they do malfunstion. say elctricity shortage. i personally just see this idea as too isolated and flawed in theory.

[A_Technocrat]

how can there not be scarcity? scarcity will allways exist. the energy used to run the machines will be scarce, and the materials to build the machines and the materials they use to build the things that are no longer scarce.

If (production + resources) >= consumption, then there is no scarcity. You're looking at resources from a price system perspective where they are limited and how many years left. Technocracy emphasizes efficiency and recycling, where resources that are processed and then reused (often at a lower energy cost); therefore resources become abundant when used in this fashion.

Even energy can be reused; the law of energy conversation shows this.

secondly, if we are to depend on machines so much, what happens when they do malfunstion. say elctricity shortage.

As long as they are well maintained and the system designs are proper, machines will mostly likely never stop running. And in the off chance they do malfunction, people are just going have to roll up their sleeves and get them running again.

i personally just see this idea as too isolated and flawed in theory.

I believe once you study it more, you'll see differently. Technocracy is not simple, believe me.

[Anarchocommunist]

in response to the comment about the law of conservation of mattter. energy is lost each time it is used, disperesed is a better term. this is most prevelant in the food cycle. each time someting is consumed it only consume a tenth of the energy that the consumed consumed itself, hence by eating lower and higher consumers instead of producers you are using and wasting the energy fromt he sun. i am too ignorant on the subject to deny that it would work, but what i will say is that i don't think it is a good and healthy idea to reduce man to a subservant class depending on machines. i think it is necessary to take a few steps back, while still using many industrail methods of production, and probably some ideas from technocracy to create a a society with a slower more sustainable growth.

[A_Technocrat]

energy is lost each time it is used,

no.

disperesed is a better term.

At least a term that is not totally false. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, no system can be 100% efficient since some energy becomes too disordered to use (still there though and some of it could be used with more advanced technology). This happens regardless of what is used to run a society, and its effects are small so it doesn't affect us at the moment (time has to pass for its effects to be seen).

As for your biological example, most of the energy is used to maintain the animal and is mostly converted to heat, which is not lost, it's just not eaten.

But looking at this, it doesn't really factor into scarcity conditions since all you need is to provide more energy than can be consumed. That is why Technocracy is a technology. Like any technology it needs more energy put into it than it outputs or else it doesn't work. So if you can get your car to run by providing it with an abundance of fuel then why can't a Technocracy run with an abundance of production and resources that North America can easily provide?

Regarding the machines, Technocracy advocates the control of technology, not people. Therefore, people would not be subservient to machines. The machines would be used by the people to fulfill all their needs (not unlike now). Technology is a tool, high automation won't change that, since people are needed to maintain and control the technology. There’s AI but that’s another topic.

i think it is necessary to take a few steps back, while still using many industrail methods of production, and probably some ideas from technocracy to create a a society with a slower more sustainable growth.

I'll agree there. Although the whole of Technocracy's plan is just as good as it's parts.

[A_Technocrat]

You sure like that VCR analogy, Kolzene. But maybe it's time to upgrade it to a DVD player.

[A_Technocrat]

The price system will pay for it's crimes.

[Proctor]

I'm sure you are aware though Kolzene of the many DVD players specifically designed to crack multiple DVD encryption types?

There was a competition in some hacker circle a while back to see who could crack DVD encryption in the least lines of code. Do you know what the winning number was?

5.

All I have to say is, "Holy Shit."

[A_Technocrat]

Well more resources are wasted on cracking it and more will be wasted on making the next version.

[A_Technocrat]

After all, that's how the FCC got corrupted.

Don't even get me started on the FCC...

They commited many crimes...

[Proctor]

I don't understand you Technoguy. Where communists hate those 'evil cappies', you just seem to hate everyone.

The Price System isn't out to get you.


Maybe it's different in the US, but here even the 'respectable' electronics shops carry zone breaking DVD players.

[Yeddi]

Yep, here too, I bought my DVD multizoned from a very well known chain of shops here in Aus, corrected by the manufacturor themselves. Why multizone? Because my mum had recently returned from China with over 100 DVD's

[A_Technocrat]

I don't understand you Technoguy. Where communists hate those 'evil cappies', you just seem to hate everyone.

I don't 'hate' my fellow Technocrats. The reason I 'hate everyone' (ie: the 'commies' and the 'cappies' and those in between) is because they all believe in the same idiotic ideals, like politics and money, the roots of evil. Remember, "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around."

The Price System isn't out to get you.

The price system isn't just out to get me. It's out there to exploit all of us. The price system is present under all those that don't support Technocracy, whether they know it or not.

Sorry to be harsh, but it is the truth.

[Proctor]

Sorry Kolzene, I forgot you were from Canada.

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around."

:lol: I like that at least!

"You can't blame the louse for thriving in lousy conditions."

See above.

Because my mum had recently returned from China with over 100 DVD's

I wish my Mum would do that.

*/randumb one liners*


Kolzene, in a way your last (very good I might add) post has returned us to an ancient debate we had in the Pedophilia thread, that punishment is a long outdated ideal. I feel I have to ask; if one man taking revenge on another is wrong, why is it right for a group of men (the state) to do it? And I know you wrote a big long PM to me about that, and I wrote a medium size PM back, but it didn't go through and in my idiocy deleted it and emptyed the Recycle Bin. Sorry about that. I've been meaning to rewrite it ever since, but my procrastination is legendary.

[Proctor]

long nite of RPing...

Should that be RPGing? Man, you are tired!

I really couldn't agree more. If we are putting them away to protect society, why are we giving long sentences to those who have lost enough sleep over this that they'll be sick next time they even think about something similar? Who does that serve?

But at the same time, what are we really gaining by having a maximum sentence, so that we are powerless to stop those who are practically guaranteed to go out and do it again?

Prevention and rehabilitation, not revenge.

[A_Technocrat]

I don't 'hate' my fellow Technocrats. The reason I 'hate everyone' (ie: the 'commies' and the 'cappies' and those in between) is because they all believe in the same idiotic ideals, like politics and money, the roots of evil. Remember, "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around."

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Let's back up a minute here, TG! "Hating" anyone isn't very useful.

Maybe, saying that commies and capitalists disappoint me is a better response. Proctor's post, or at least the way it was worded, caught me of gaurd and I tried to respond the best way I could. Also, it wasn't good that I spent 5 minutes making the post when I should of spent maybe 15 or 30 minutes. I've should of waited until I had time.

As for "hating" capitalists, Many people, communist and young Technocrats alike, like to say things like "Punish the rich."

Actually I don't 'hate' capitalists themselves, since many of them are smart and resourceful (ie: how they got rich). Although the system they play under is illrational.

Hopefully this will re-calibrate our position on the subject of the Price System, TG?

I'll have to think about it. And of course take a long, overdue study of the Technocracy guide.