[Figlio di Moros]

One of the principles of Technocracy is the underlying reality of a superabundance. However, Oil, the substance our modern economy functions on, from transportation to plastics, fertilizers, and construction materials, is disappearing. As oil disappears, how do you maintain a superabundance with no art. fertilizers, or feuls, and requiring more energy-intensive equipment?

Also, in the next ten years Moore's law is supposed to end, with a limit on the size of transistors possible. Assuming Quantum technology continues to elude us, what impact would the slowing growth of information technologies have on a technocracy?

[Figlio di Moros]

I can't find anything but references towards 3-meter rail or Continental Hydrology on the Technocracy site; would you happen to have any links?

[Daktoria]

I'm still trying to figure out how technocracy figures out the demand side of the equation.

You feed people, you clothe people, you house people.

OK... now what? I can't imagine people remaining psychologically motivated to participate in society stuck at that.

Technocrats always seem to sell themselves short in letting engineers simply problem solve everyone else's creative thinking.

It's no wonder technocracy always ideologically fails to take root - nobody cares to hold back from biting the hand which feeds.

[Figlio di Moros]

If this approach were used today, the outcomes could be very different. I could describe them a little though if you like.

I'd appreciate it. I'd also like to point out to daktoria, in a society where status is unconnected to material possession, we can't know how people would react. We all strive for some form of status, but it would be unconnected to production. Except, possibly, those within the technocratic sphere, who'd be holding society on their shoulders. So, everyone else would attempt to signal their status in various ways- art, music, being lazy, dancing, even drinking or drugs. This is probably why Technocrats have kept the concept of political governance flexible, as society could run anywhere from self-directed minimalists who favor inner growth, to hedonistic welfare queens who drink, get high, fight and fuck almost exclusively.

[Figlio di Moros]

Right, I would suggest MagLev over 3-meter considering, you know, it's been 80 yrs. Actually, Guillarme Faye suggested the use of VacTrains in his Archeofuturism back in 1997; given the increased maturity of the technology, it's a better idea now. The simple idea is to sink the railway under the ground and make it airtight, then suck out the air surrounding the train during operation. By eliminating surface friction through Magnetic levitation, and air resistance by placing it in a vacuum, you can operate the train at higher effeciency, at higher speeds. I think the only technology missing from the puzzle is room-temp superconductors, but those could be placed in later while utilyzing VacTrains w/ current technology that minimizes energy expense.

As for the Continental Hydrology, another great idea. I'm not sure why they'd have built canals through Northern Canada in the 30's, 40's, or 50's, but it's make much more sense today. Actually, Continental Hydrology, as well as MagLev, pretty much encompasses much of what the Authoritarian right agrees is necessary for a post-oil economy. Canals and Railways are much more effecient for transportation, and the improved irrigation, waterwells, and hydroelectric power doesn't hurt.

The only criticism, I suppose, is what the effects of hydrology would be on the environment. I mean, irrigation and dams have some effect, already, but such a wide-scale program would effect waterways and irrigation across the continent. On the bright side, we could bury the VacTrains under the canals, sourcing their hydro for electric propulsion and effeciently building both systems at simultaneously.

[Figlio di Moros]

Well, the problems of externalities was addressed by Pigu, who'd support taxes and subsidies to reorganize both negative and positive externalities back into the pricing mechanism. Much like any potential solution, PAC-funded career politicians aren't really interested in it.

Are there any updated plans supported by Technocracy Inc? Like you've said, they have to use the technology available, and that would include the many updated forms of technology we have. Not just a plan for maximizing the use of our current technology, but also how they plan to fund next-wave tech as well.

[Figlio di Moros]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax

You don't need many resources; you need manpower, and creativity. So long as you can maintain the site, and perhaps access some academic resources, you just need to provide motivated individuals who will source technologies and formalize some plans. People already do some of this.

[Figlio di Moros]

No-one else? It's kind've said, really- you get people producing games, programs, music, etc. all time time over the internet. Add the number of premade ideas you could borrow, it really comes down to manpower. That's really kind've sad.

As for "price system band-aid", wouldn't it say a lot we're not even using them? Piguvian taxes, LVT, limiting leveraging financial systems.... At this point, though, I'm sure we're close to "too late" for a technocracy. It takes 10 yrs to build a nuclear power plant, about the same time frame for the railroads, and all the green energy plants need time to be built. 10 more years of exponentially rising oil prices... Seems like it'll be a problem.

[Daktoria]

I have to confess that I am not sure what it is that you are confused about. Is it about how demand works in a Technate, or how people are motivated? If the latter, motivated to do what exactly? Demand is figured out quite simply in the Energy Accounting system. Every time a product is "consumed" (the equivalent of being "bought"), it is registered with a central body in the Sequence of Distribution. This information is collected from all over the Technate in real time, allowing the production side of the system to know exactly how much is being consumed, and where, rates of growth or decline, and from that decide how much to produce in the next time period in order to cover demand.

If by "participate in society", you mean what is generally thought of as "work", then that is a more complicated subject (covered in detail here), but the simple answer is that since machines are doing virtually all the work that people don't want to do, then that leaves the work that they do want to do, and people generally do things that they want to do when given the opportunity. Also, when you take away the consumer driven society, where status is based largely on what or how much you own, prestige becomes more about accomplishments, so that is another motivating factor. Other than that, there are many ways in which people can enjoy their lives, much like today, but with greater opportunities to do so when you don't have to worry about making a living.

Can you explain how people "accomplish" anything while viewing work and consumption separately?

My understanding of accomplishment is fulfilling something that stimulates you. During and after the project's completion, you expect an entertaining return on investment. Yes, this means owning stuff. It means having a quantity of stimulation over a quantity of time. It also includes taking pride in owning how stimulation is secured.

Prestige is weighed from how much you impress the world. If you don't own stuff, no impression is being made.

[Figlio di Moros]

Not true, whatsoever- who impresses you more, Nichola Tesla, or George Pullman?

Status can be impressed through something other than consumption, and certainly should be. Hell, even today, you don't impress women at bars by buying them drinks. Part of it is they've become entitled, but more has to do with better indicators- style, articulation, wit, dancing, etc. Consumption itself does little.

Translate this to technocracy, status signaling will involve position within technocracy, innovations made, art, etc. Two men, being equal in purchasing power, will attempt to signal their status differently. Again, fashion will be important, as well as physical condition, humor, wit, articulation, power, and "interestingness". Interestingness can be everything from working on a new program with your friends, to being an artist, to being well travelled or a good cook.

[Daktoria]

Not true, whatsoever- who impresses you more, Nichola Tesla, or George Pullman?

You have it backwards. Neither Tesla nor Pullman experience impressing me. Therefore it doesn't count in their lives.

Accomplishment justified by vanity is humiliating as if you're guilty for believing your own lifetime is relevant.

Humiliation doesn't motivate people to accomplish anything, and it takes accomplishers for granted.

Status can be impressed through something other than consumption, and certainly should be. Hell, even today, you don't impress women at bars by buying them drinks. Part of it is they've become entitled, but more has to do with better indicators- style, articulation, wit, dancing, etc. Consumption itself does little.

This is a little naive.

Wit is based in consumption. You have to consume objects and experiences in order to deliberately misinterpret what someone says. That way, you come off as a creative thinker.

The same thing goes for articulation. You have to consume objects in order to relax your sensitivity. That way, you tease women as long as possible and don't force them to respond. The response blossoms spontaneously.

Translate this to technocracy, status signaling will involve position within technocracy, innovations made, art, etc. Two men, being equal in purchasing power, will attempt to signal their status differently. Again, fashion will be important, as well as physical condition, humor, wit, articulation, power, and "interestingness". Interestingness can be everything from working on a new program with your friends, to being an artist, to being well travelled or a good cook.

Alright, now we're getting somewhere.

How does technocracy cultivate interestingness? It seems too logical for its own good. People get bored and will start screwing up the system on purpose just to have something to do.

[Figlio di Moros]

Mind rephrasing... well, everything? Not so much as a single line made any sense.