[Francis Drakeleigh]

"we will establish a people's national community in Britain based on mutual duties, respect, and identity. This is in direct contradiction to the counter social forces of Neo-liberalism, Neo-Marxism, and Neo-racialism"
Integralist Party Manifesto -17.04.10


Your analysis of National Bolshevism was way off the mark. Following Ortega Y Gasset real National Bolsheviks would see the nation as a unit of destiny and not primarily as a unit of inheritance. Everything is in a state of becoming.

[Benjamin Noyles]

"we will establish a people's national community in Britain based on mutual duties, respect, and identity. This is in direct contradiction to the counter social forces of Neo-liberalism, Neo-Marxism, and Neo-racialism"
Integralist Party Manifesto -17.04.10

I am sorry you have me at a loss, can you please just make your point because I can't imagine what you are thinking and have exhausted all avenues.

Your analysis of National Bolshevism was way off the mark. Following Ortega Y Gasset real National Bolsheviks would see the nation as a unit of destiny and not primarily as a unit of inheritance. Everything is in a state of becoming.

I have never even heard of Gasset until now, so it will take a little more than an uncontextualised statement to make me think he is the grandfather and redeemer of national bolshevism. How about you actually explain how my analysis of natonal bolshevism is 'way off mark' instead of just throwing a random name at me without even bothering to explain or justify it.

[Francis Drakeleigh]

No, allow me to explain.

Where Nazism places the emphasis biological race, a particular group of people having marginally more similar genes than they may have with others outside of that group, National Bolshevism place the emphasis on forces of history. These forces have forged nations since the earliest days of human societies: conflict with forces outside of the group and the nobility of spirit that these struggles can bring forth; a common economic imperative; the intuitive almost mystic knowledge that their destiny is together. There will always be counter forces at play and National Bolshevism’s struggle will always be with these enemies: High capitalism, particularly its supreme driving force, international finance ; cultural agents that seek to emasculate the will to power; those that seek to pervert the true nationalism with ridiculous “volkish” ideas. One of the perverse results of the first counter- force mentioned here was and to some extent still is that of left-wing internationalism, an absurd reaction to international finance that tries to defeat the monster by becoming one.

[Benjamin Noyles]

Where Nazism places the emphasis biological race, a particular group of people having marginally more similar genes than they may have with others outside of that group, National Bolshevism place the emphasis on forces of history.

If I might butt in, are these necissarily mutually exclusive (let alone within liberal reasoning which sets he standards for new right thought)? that's my point, one needs to be disqualified and I do not think National Bolshevism is armed to do that.

We are getting slightly off point so to put it in perspective I make the following observations;
1:You are not a strict national bolshevik in the sense that most contemporary national bolsheviks do not share your viewpoint of the ideology as defined here
2: Self identified National Bolshevism in all its manifestations has never denied ethnic concern
3: It can be revised socialist reasoning that can lend one to being a conceptual 'racist' regardless of the 'nationalist' element
eg - observation that ethnicity/nationality corrolate with historical materialsm
4: National bolsevism suffers because its mindset is rooted in the post war radical right, the soluion is a new perception which (for arguments sake) is held by yourself

These forces have forged nations ... that seek to emasculate the will to power;

agreed

[Francis Drakeleigh]

You claim to know a number of National Bolsheviks and then seem to suggest that figures like Hofmeister and the Nazi NBF in Russia represent National Bolshevism, a strange connection to make had you truly met National Bolsheviks. Perhaps if you give me some quotes from NB thinkers it would help ( not Hofmeister).
I'm sorry to have confused you with the quote from your Integralist manifesto, I just wanted to point out that it says that racialism is not what you're about. If you find Carter Michaels difficult to talk about I quite understand, but I remain curious as to how then you were quite happy, or at least it appeared so, with a mixed race leader.

Oh, by the way, I consider my last pint very much to the point.

[telluro]

All palingenetic ideologies and movement seemed doomed to be a gathering spot for racialist blow flies until they change whatever complex multifold aims the original movement carried into a drone of "race, race, race, race, race, race...."

Not only can racialists not carry forth a proper palingenetic movement, but their ideals run almost directly contrary to it - 1. since they seem to believe that race is the key to this civilizational rebirth, and that preserving or recreating a race alone somehow restores everything else, or worse 2. since most are simply racial conservatives, believing in no form of civilizational rebirth, but simply in keeping an eternal worldwide hippie apartheid.

[Francis Drakeleigh]

Thank you telluro, your point is well made. Respect to your succinctness (more than me) and your nod to Thiriart in the form of your avatar.

[telluro]

All is said with due respect to Dave whom I know as an intelligent and worthy thinker.

[Benjamin Noyles]

You claim to know a number of National Bolsheviks and then seem to suggest that figures like Hofmeister and the Nazi NBF in Russia represent National Bolshevism, a strange connection to make had you truly met National Bolsheviks.

You are forgetting I also used to be a national bolshevik myself

Perhaps if you give me some quotes from NB thinkers it would help ( not Hofmeister).

You understand I would have done this earlier. Lets say I have undertaken this conversation under duress and I do not have the resources available to me at this point. I had New right NB's I know of, Various National Bolshevik Blogs, and quotes from various political oranisations around the world, and that is not counting every day national bolsheviks I bump into. Wait I do have somehing for you, a taste of the sheer insanity that is to come
http://www.easpf.org/
I mean.... just WOW
Actually I am pretty sure that is the worst but you see how I mean by this form of national bolshevism as a new idiom

I'm sorry to have confused you with the quote from your Integralist manifesto, I just wanted to point out that it says that racialism is not what you're about.

Indeed that is the case, I just don't see the contradiction. This has been an analysis of National Bolshevism not Integralism. The point I was trying to make in that so called 'politicians answer' was that Integralism is special and excempt from all of the rules of logic in this thread.

If you find Carter Michaels difficult to talk about I quite understand, but I remain curious as to how then you were quite happy, or at least it appeared so, with a mixed race leader.

We still have a mixed race leader, he didn't just turn turn white.

[Francis Drakeleigh]

Wait I do have somehing for you, a taste of the sheer insanity that is to come
http://www.easpf.org/
I mean.... just WOW

You dissapoint me Benjamin, almost childish. You're capable of quite sophisticated argument when it doesn't turn into sophistry. And why do you imagine I would be remotely interested in articles such as "staying white in America today"? What I see is a hideous caricature deliberately chosen by you to discredit, yet still, like the other cartoon examples you have displayed, such as Hofmeister and this Gay Maurice of whatever his name is, they sneakily conflate ethnic romanticist bullshit with National Bolshevism.

So yes I expected more, perhaps Niekisch, Junger, Drie de la Rochelle, Thiriart. Or the contemporary Luc Michel, José Cuadrado Costa, Dugin, Mutti. But no, I get absurd "red rednecks". Dear me!

BTW, I often find people avoid economics when they don't understand it.

[Benjamin Noyles]

I am going to be straight with you, I have been operating this conversation partly under false pretences (although I did say outright that I was playing devil’s advocate). I was hoping you could provide some answers to these problems so we could get a balanced assessment of the state of national Bolshevism, while in the mean time I have attempted to be constructive. I think we actually agree on allot;

cartoon examples you have displayed, such as Hoffmeister and this Gay Maurice(< Inspired)

Cartoonish yes, But they are alive and part of the culture. Indeed Hoffmeister is a young enthusiast within the NDP (albeit an outrider) who in a way I like to think of as my contemporary, but he still has fans, appears on radio, ect. Also with respect to kai who had his fifteen minutes of fame when he published 'revolution', I will admit that if anyone knows what his name is in 20 years time I will eat Norman Lowell's walking stick (also if anyone remembers Norman Lowell in 20 years I will eat another one of Norman Lowell's walking sticks, 'imperium europa' by 2012 indeed!). They do however along with their friends around the world monopolise the political culture. Jonothan Boulter is not a joke, and neither are the supporters of all these people which I dare say are quite numerous within sections of the radical right.

Niekisch, Junger, Drie de la Rochelle, Thiriart, are good examples

Great examples if I might say so myself (but dead ones), if for nothing else they come from an era whose mindset was not innundated to concepts of 'race', and people who were racialy minded did not need to state it explicitly. My point (and this time it is important) is that cultural Marxists today have made race an inescapable aspect of all parts of political life which has fermented white nationalism, which is merely a reaction to readdress the balance of a broken system. My point was that we need to be equipped with a different nationalist viewpoint as not defined by liberals like (for arguments sake) we have both done.

Luc Michel, José Cuadrado Costa, Dugin, Mutti

GOOOD! Although Dugin is fairly questionable considering he had a hand in setting up both the contemporary National Bolshevik party, and the National Bolshevik Front. It should also be noted he gave a speech for the international new right while Bowden was chairman. Not making any judgements but he is a bit of a black horse. The others I have trouble with given the search engine produces this page in the first list. From what I can see though (and these are first impressions) all seem to be disciples/adherents of Thiriart, or are within his sphere, which strengthens my time/place argument.

You dissapoint me Benjamin

red rednecks

OK OK I am sorry to expose you to that but I make my point by showing the most brutal rape of National Bolshevik ideology, and as something new in the west, not Russian Nazis with post soviet malaise. I know they look like something that Louis Theroux should be interviewing but just look how widespread it is becoming. Yes it’s daft but is it any less daft than their fellow rednecks who dress up in mock German 1930's brown shirt uniforms waving the flag of the third Reich.

why do you imagine I would be remotely interested in articles such as "staying white in America today"?

Because next to it is an article entitled
"Against “American Nationalism,” Judeo-“Christianity” and Paleo-Conservativism and in Defense of European-American National Liberation"
Pan European-anti petty nationalist rhetoric which if you would forgive me, is not too dissimilar to some of your own National Bolshevik statements. That combined with actual quotes from Marx and other articles like "On Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago” and "White Power is the Banner of Socialism, Victory and anti-Imperialism for OUR People!"

When I was a NB it was my belief that all these far right types were just displaced socialists (in the NB sense) and needed to be 'socialised' so to speak, this appears to be what is occurring. Note the employment of socialist reasoning and rhetoric in the argument.

[telluro]

OK OK I am sorry to expose you to that but I make my point by showing the most brutal rape of National Bolshevik ideology, and as something new in the west, not Russian Nazis with post soviet malaise.

National Bolshevism was contemporary with Soviet power actually, although it might not have had that name then, mostly run by Germans and Russians who sympathized with Soviet totalitarian communism both for anti-capitalist leanings and for its rightist values of structure, order, militancy, etc... Several Whites (political faction) had switched to the Soviets for similar ideological reasons, for example, and saw Communism in Russia as another step in the expansion of the Russian Empire.

Junger's Der Arbeiter remains one of the clearest expressions of German National Bolshevism.

[Francis Drakeleigh]

Niekisch, Junger, Drie de la Rochelle, Thiriart, are good examples

Great examples if I might say so myself (but dead ones),

Hasn’t stopped you lauding Oswald Mosley in the past, or me really.

if for nothing else they come from an era whose mindset was not innundated to concepts of 'race', and people who were racialy minded did not need to state it explicitly

Oh no. Only Adolf Hitler and the Nazis!

Luc Michel, José Cuadrado Costa

Yes disciples of Thiriart, but Thiriart is not some distant figure from the 1930’s, he only died in the 1992.
Mutti incidentally is more of an Evolian.

All that embarassing American Euro-Septic Front rubbish only served to prove the point that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Give us Deliverence!

But your still not getting it, they are sheep dressed up as wolves. They actually think being European is having a surname like Jones or Schmidtt.

[Benjamin Noyles]

I sense the level of the discussion has dropped somewhat. If you can be specific and to the point at least some times it would help, i cant just keep dancing around like this. Also I think I might sart keeping caount of all the points of mine you ignore, no wonder we never get anywhere

Oh no. Only Adolf Hitler and the Nazis!

What were you trying to say by this? Oh sorry I forgot about all the neo marxist cultural relativism in the weimar republic, was Hilter hitting out against reverse discrimination policies in the workhouse? running street battles through turkish neighbourhoods? campaigning to bring back ba ba blacksheep into schools after some leftist council decided it bought back bad memories of the turnip winter?

there is a reason all these modern white nationalists of the rockwell model do not resemble the german national socialism in the slightest they too have different mindset.

Yes disciples of Thiriart, but Thiriart is not some distant figure from the 1930’s, he only died in the 1992.

So? Two years before the fossil Jeffery hamm, and Mosley only died in 1980... I mean he was at the conference of vienna with Mosley! and a quick google says he was born in 1922. Can we safely say that he was fom something in a different age.

Mutti incidentally is more of an Evolian.

An 'Evolian' hardly makes a model anti racist now does it?

All that embarassing American Euro-Septic Front rubbish only served to prove the point that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Give us Deliverence!

But your still not getting it, they are sheep dressed up as wolves. They actually think being European is having a surname like Jones or Schmidtt.

???

National Bolshevism was contemporary with Soviet power actually,

I meant as as opposed to a docrine of national bolshevism which is not purely political, reffering more to Drakeleigh's description of the Russian National Bolshevik front as Nazis, who might accomodate communist aeisthetics because it makes up part of their national identity. A russian nazi has a reason to keep a portrait of Stalin on his desk, he is his national hero. A hillbilly from Kentucky on the other hand does not have any historical reason to idolise Stalin, so assuming he is not insane the association is a political one ont a sentimental one.

although it might not have had that name then, mostly run by Germans and Russians who sympathized with Soviet totalitarian communism both for anti-capitalist leanings and for its rightist values of structure, order, militancy, etc... Several Whites (political faction) had switched to the Soviets for similar ideological reasons, for example, and saw Communism in Russia as another step in the expansion of the Russian Empire

Ther were those who looked at the soviet union like a radish(or a turnip or onion, I dont remember exactly which root vegtable) 'red on the outside, white on the inside' The Smenkova in the west. Even The expat Russian fascist party warmed up to stalin, the problem is most of these red-whites got shot shortly after they crossed the border. Their impact on the west was minimal, and are within the russian radical right a 'revived' tradition.

unger's Der Arbeiter remains one of the clearest expressions of German National Bolshevism.

I MUST read that! But I can't find it anywhere

[Francis Drakeleigh]

What were you trying to say by this?
Come now Ben, you know full well. You said

if for nothing else they come from an era whose mindset was not innundated to concepts of 'race', and people who were racialy minded did not need to state it explicitly

so my point was that if this was the era in which existed Hitler and his followers, then this can hardly be true for they surely stated their "racial mindedness" very explicitly indeed.

Note:Give us Deliverence- I only said this as an oblique reference to an early 70's film of the name Deliverence of which I was reminded on seeing the two "leaders" on the website you added a link for.

"Mutti incidentally is more of an Evolian."
"-An 'Evolian' hardly makes a model anti racist now does it?"
Well he can hardly be a racist the way you percieve it, he's an Italian but a Muslim.
So no running through Turkish areas of Berlin kicking bins over for him.

I do agree with you about the hillybilly /Stalin photo thing - can only be political, though I must say for the life of me I can't imagine why you introduced this American grouping in the first place, why them? European National Bolsheviks will surely respect Stalin, but better that they find inspirational figures closer to home. Ramiro Ledesma Ramos, Michael Collins, Georges Sorel, Tito, Nichola Bombacci are all often spoken of in these circles. Beyond Europe, Juan Peron is highly regarded. However none can really match the sheer gravity of Stalin.

"Also I think I might sart keeping caount of all the points of mine you ignore"

I have been operating this conversation partly under false pretences

That's why I sometimes ignore some your points.

"Thiriart is not some distant figure from the 1930’s, he only died in the 1992 "
............... Can we safely say that he was fom something in a different age."

Unlike you Ben, myself and the people quoted are old enough not to be Thatcher's children, born knowing nothing but the Kali Yuga. Your idea of "modernity" is rooted in the cultural acceptance of the inalienable right, as it is percieved, for finance to take what it will.

[telluro]

I MUST read that! But I can't find it anywhere

I only found a second-hand copy in Spanish.

[Benjamin Noyles]

I know what I said. I meant it. I explained it. from the fact you have not addressed it I can only assume you agree with me or have dropped the issue. I am not going to go on repeating myself.

Unlike you Ben, myself and the people quoted are old enough not to be Thatcher's children, born knowing nothing but the Kali Yuga. Your idea of "modernity" is rooted in the cultural acceptance of the inalienable right, as it is percieved, for finance to take what it will.

I do not understand

I only found a second-hand copy in Spanish.

Blast. Nevermind I will keep up the search.

[Francis Drakeleigh]

I am not going to go on repeating myself.

-Thank heavens!

[Benjamin Noyles]

Well if that is how you feel, now I don't have to burden myself with talking to you anymore which I felt was always a waste of time that could have been spent on something productive. Have fun with the rest of your life, now if you'll excuse me I have a world to win.

[Francis Drakeleigh]

Of course you have Benjamin, good luck with that.