[telluro]

To my Pegasus

Vehement god of a race of steel,
space-intoxicated Automobile,
stamping with anguish, champing at the bit!
O formidable Japanese monster with eyes like a forge,
fed on fire and mineral oils,
hungry for horizons and sidereal spoils,
I unleash your heart of diabolic puff-puffs,
and your giant pneumatics, for the dance
that you lead on the white roads of the world.
At last I release your metallic reins…You leap,
with ecstasy, into liberating Infinity!…

At the sound of the pound of your voice…
see how the setting Sun hounds
your bounding steps, accelerating its bleeding
palpitation along the horizon…
It’s galloping there, down in the woods…look!…

What is the matter, handsome demon?…
I’m at your mercy…Take me!
On the ground deafened despite its echoes,
under the sky blinded despite its golden stars,
I go fueling my fever and my desire
with sword blows right in the nose!…
And from moment to moment, I straighten my back
to feel winding round my quivering neck
the cool downy arms of the wind.

It’s your alluring distant arms that draw me!
this wind, it’s your engulfing breath,
fathomless Infinity absorbing me with joy!…
Ah! Ah!…suddenly the gangling black windmills
seem to be running
on their whaleboned canvas wings
as if on gigantic legs…

Now the Mountains get ready to throw
cloaks of drowsy coolness no my flight…
There! There! look! at that sinister curve!…
Mountains, O monstrous Cattle, O Mammoths
trotting heavily along, arching your huge backs,
you are outrun…drowned…
in the maze of mists!…
And dimly I hear
the whirring of your colossal legs
pounding the road in their seven-league boots…

Mountains with cool cloaks of azure!…
Beautiful rivers breathing in the moonlight!…
Shadowy plains! I pass you at full gallop
on this racing monster…Stars, my Stars,
do you hear his bounds, the sound of the pound
of his brazen lungs endlessly exploding?
The bet is on…with You, my Stars!…
Faster!…faster still!…
And no respite, and no rest!
Release the brakes!…You can’t?…
Smash them then!…
Let the engine’s pulse centuple!

Hurrah! No more contact with the filthy earth!…
At last, I break loose and fly freely
over the intoxicating abundance
of Stars streaming in the great bed of the sky!

[Daktoria]

telluro, do you believe futurism is genuinely fascist?

Futurism has the militarist and industrialist elements down, and it even relishes in madness, but it outrightly rejects history and all semblance of classic folk community.

In any case, it is an interesting poem, but futurism disconnects from technology because it shows a tremendous lack of understanding for engineering principles. It only cares about the raw production and consumption of technology, not its design.

Kind of reminds me of how little kids take toy cars and action figures and smash them altogether.

[Rei Murasame]

Just play along. Lie to yourself then about me not believing in group consciousness. Show me how all lies can be temporarily abolished.

Why would you want me to discuss mysticism in a topic that you started about technology? I may have been born in the afternoon, but it wasn't yesterday.

Why do your topics always dive radically off-topic at the earliest possible opportunity?

What happens when you can't discipline people?

Is there anyone who is incapable of being disciplined?

[telluro]

telluro, do you believe futurism is genuinely fascist?

...t it outrightly rejects history and all semblance of classic folk community.

That's why it's a pure form of fascism, without the conservative clap-trap.

In any case, it is an interesting poem, but futurism disconnects from technology because it shows a tremendous lack of understanding for engineering principles. It only cares about the raw production and consumption of technology, not its design.

Kind of reminds me of how little kids take toy cars and action figures and smash them altogether.

They were romantics and artists, not scientists and engineers.

[Daktoria]

Why would you want me to discuss mysticism in a topic that you started about technology? I may have been born in the afternoon, but it wasn't yesterday.

...because I want to see how you put the pieces together.

Why do your topics always dive radically off-topic at the earliest possible opportunity?

Topic drift makes conversation seem important. The more areas of interest a conversation engages, the more applicable and valuable it becomes. It doesn't matter if a perspective appears to make sense as long as a perspective appears to be complete.

Grand unified theories, I love them. It doesn't matter if you seem to be out of your mind when having them. Sometimes, insanity is the path to coming in touch with pure intuition.

Why didn't you respond to the beginning of my post?

__________________

That's why it's a pure form of fascism, without the conservative clap-trap.

Ohhhh.... snap.

Fuckin Rei and Fasces have been leading me down the wrong path the whole time. It's been a while since I forgot what fascism really is.

You should have posted this at the beginning!

They were romantics and artists, not scientists and engineers.

Do romantics and artists ever really embrace technology though? That could be why they're drive to madness by it. It makes things seem crazy to them, so they're expressing how they lose their minds.

[telluro]

The early strains of Fascism were revolutionary, avant-gardist, modern, anti-Marxist, anti-capitalist AND anti-conservative. Take a look at the early German National Socialists, the early Spanish Falangists and the early Italian Fascists. Sure they were incoherent in terms of ideology but those were the instincts: an ideology of power, of advancement, of strength, of a new humanity and a new age...

The more established the three strains became, the more they shifted their weight towards agriculturism, big business, petty nationalism, and Catholicism. The Spanish Falangists were the worst in this respect, diluted so much with Carlists (Catholic monarchists) that they ultimately became identical. Once in power, almost all three strains forgot their revolutionary nature.

Franco, Mussolini and Hitler were the men who brought the strains to power, but in so doing warped the ideologies almost beyond recognition. One might conclude that this was inevitable, but one cannot confuse the ideology with what it had to become when in power.

[Daktoria]

...so you wouldn't claim corporatism, the Nouvelle Droite, or Imperial Japan to be thoroughly fascist?

[telluro]

No political phenomenon in the world is thoroughly ANY ideology.

[Pants-of-dog]

I would assume thatfascists would have more trouble developing technology than free cultures simply because fascist cultures invariably shoot all the intellectuals when they seize power.

The simple fact that fascists have to kill free thinkers in order to maintain power suggests that fascists societies will have less free thinkers, and therefore less technological improvement.

[Fasces]

Even if the stereotype of the stifling fascist society were true, which it is not, the inventions you talk about don't need free-thinking poets or artists, but engineers - people who are trained, from the beginning, to solve problems within rigid constraints, such as budget, material, or the fundamental laws of physics. In any case, even historical fact is against you. The totalitarian societies of Germany or the Soviet Union were hardly technologically backwards to liberal societies, and in the fields they chose to prioritize even more advanced, but it is within the rigid heirarchy of the Armed Forces that most technological achievement of the last century, if not even further back, has been accomplished.

Poetry would suffer, certainly, in the rigid society your are imagining, but not engineering. If anything, it is the hierarchical, conservative, and authoritarian regimes that excel in these fields - even today, technological development is at the forefront in China, Japan, and South Korea, as well as the United States, and has been for decades.

[Pants-of-dog]

Even if the stereotype of the stifling fascist society were true, which it is not,

I have never heard of a fascist government that did not put the intellectuals up against the wall pretty much right away. Please enlighten me with an example of this not happening. Thank you.

the inventions you talk about don't need free-thinking poets or artists, but engineers - people who are trained, from the beginning, to solve problems within rigid constraints, such as budget, material, or the fundamental laws of physics.

Not quite. They have to be trained in engineering, but they also have to be able to come up with creative solutions to open-ended problems and complex problems. This is the same skill set that allows people to successfully and intelligently criticise government apparatuses and implement new ones, which is exactly what fascists would see as a threat to their power.

In any case, even historical fact is against you. The totalitarian societies of Germany or the Soviet Union were hardly technologically backwards to liberal societies, and in the fields they chose to prioritize even more advanced, but it is within the rigid heirarchy of the Armed Forces that most technological achievement of the last century, if not even further back, has been accomplished.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Nazis and the Soviets were less successful, technologically, than the rest of the Western world. This is including military technology. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Nazis lost many intelligent engineers and scientists before and during WWII because of their tendency to kill them for being Jewish or communist or otherwise not the type of people Nazis wanted to have around.

Poetry would suffer, certainly, in the rigid society your are imagining, but not engineering. If anything, it is the hierarchical, conservative, and authoritarian regimes that excel in these fields - even today, technological development is at the forefront in China, Japan, and South Korea, as well as the United States, and has been for decades.

If that were true, North Korea would be more technologically advanced than South Korea. It is not.

[telluro]

North Korea advances less than other nations simply because it is embargoed, and the leadership closes it from the world, not because it stifles its own intellectuals, although that may happen also.

National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy were technically as advanced, and in Germany's case, more advanced than the nations surrounding and fighting them, and lost only due to numbers and climates and wrong decisions.

Fascist states suppressing freethinkers... freethinkers is too vague a word. Some scientists and intellectuals are "idealists" and fight against the state or run away, or are targeted for other reasons (ex. being Jews). But most scientists and intellectuals simply conform outwardly and continue with their work. And then you'll obviously have the scientists and intellectuals who are Fascist idealists. Refer to several intellectuals, philosophers and scientists who were Fascist sympathizers.

Why in any case would a Fascist state suppress freethinkers? It would have to suppress troublemakers or people who propose alternatives to the Fascist system. But similarly in a Liberal regime, alternatives and digressions are also suppressed, just differently. The Fascist has club and gun where the Liberal has discredit and social persecution, not to mention the hidden club and gun, especially in foreign countries, and jail. In this sense, the Liberal state is light-years ahead of Fascism since it inspires less resistance. But again, why specifically freethinkers? Why would a Fascist state specifically suppress a person who finds creative solutions to difficult problems?

[Rei Murasame]

I have never heard of a fascist government that did not put the intellectuals up against the wall pretty much right away. Please enlighten me with an example of this not happening.

Empire of Japan, South Korea (don't try to tell me that Park Chung-hee wasn't a Fascist, he filled almost all the requirements), Taiwan, Singapore?

[Pants-of-dog]

Empire of Japan, South Korea (don't try to tell me that Park Chung-hee wasn't a Fascist, he filled almost all the requirements), Taiwan, Singapore?

The Empire of Japan was a monarchy that replaced another more or less autocratic form of rule. Perhaps I should have been more clear and said that fascist governments replacing democracies are known for killing intellectuals.

Like Park Chung-Hee:

The Yushin Regime was soon challenged by activists from groups such as college students, artists, religious leaders, and the opposition party. Park suppressed these protests by force. In the People's Revolutionary Party Incident, eight persons were executed for treason. The only evidence, their confessions, were extracted by torture, and the executed are now generally considered to have been innocent. Nevertheless, the resistance to the Yushin Regime continued and caused serious social unrest.

Taiwan had its White Terror period.

What do you mean by Singapore, exactly?

[Fasces]

I have never heard of a fascist government that did not put the intellectuals up against the wall pretty much right away.

Books are full of things you don't know.

Francisco Franco, and the Spanish Miracle.

Getulio Vargas, and the modernization of Brazil.

Chiang Kai-Shek, and Taiwanese development.

Not quite. They have to be trained in engineering, but they also have to be able to come up with creative solutions to open-ended problems and complex problems. This is the same skill set that allows people to successfully and intelligently criticise government apparatuses and implement new ones, which is exactly what fascists would see as a threat to their power.

Only in the Orwellian stereotype you have of the manifestation of fascist ideology, a stereotype that does not conform even with the real world example - even in Nazi Germany, which is saying much.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Nazis and the Soviets were less successful, technologically, than the rest of the Western world.

No, they were not. There are plenty of technological developments in which Nazi and Soviet scientists were pioneers. Yes, the Western world led the globe in consumer technology. No, this is not solely a discussion of 'technology that makes PoD's life more convenient." The Nazis developed modern rocketry, and the Soviets were the first in space, to give clear examples.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Nazis lost many intelligent engineers and scientists before and during WWII because of their tendency to kill them for being Jewish or communist or otherwise not the type of people Nazis wanted to have around.

The Nazis were morons. Their methods were not universal, even among their contemporary fascist states, and they were rightly looked down upon by the majority of fascist intellectuals and leaders as vulgar and moronic.

If that were true, North Korea would be more technologically advanced than South Korea. It is not.

South Korea was authoritarian until 1989, well past the peak of its development. Furthermore, North Korea's inefficiencies have a lot to do with the economic situation it is in. There was a time, shocking to you as they may be, where North Korean development was well ahead of South Korea, prior to the worsening situation in the Cold War and the authoritarian policies that led to South Korean development. n any case your example of North Korea is a clear strawman. The American Armed Forces are responsible for nuclear power, modern ballistics systems, advances in satellite, GPS, and other similar technologies, as well as the internet. This within a hierarchical and authoritarian framework of the military.

Your claim has absolutely no basis, and is nothing more than the manifestation of decades of systemic propaganda on the superiority of the liberal system common to Anglophone countries. What you are parroting to me comes straight out of the mind of a Cold War North American propagandist. He likely has it written somewhere in a little black book.

[Pants-of-dog]

Books are full of things you don't know.

Francisco Franco, and the Spanish Miracle.

Franco's Spain was notable for its technological and intellectual backwardness as well as its executions of religious and political opponents.

http://www.iiipublishing.com/politics/f ... _main.html

Franco's victory was followed by thousands of summary executions (from 15,000 to 25,000 people[35]) and imprisonments, while many were put to forced labour, building railways, drying out swamps, digging canals (La Corchuela, the Canal of the Bajo Guadalquivir), construction of the Valle de los Caídos monument, etc. The 1940 shooting of the president of the Catalan government, Lluís Companys, was one of the most notable cases of this early suppression of opponents and dissenters.

Although leftists suffered from an important death-toll, the Spanish intelligentsia, atheists and military and government figures who had remained loyal to the Madrid government during the war were also targeted for oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_ ... _Civil_War

Getulio Vargas, and the modernization of Brazil.

An oligarch seizing power from other oligarchs. Perhaps I should have been more clear and said that fascist governments replacing democracies are known for killing intellectuals.

Chiang Kai-Shek, and Taiwanese development.

See my previous post.

Only in the Orwellian stereotype you have of the manifestation of fascist ideology, a stereotype that does not conform even with the real world example - even in Nazi Germany, which is saying much.

No. I am fairly sure that anyone who has actually worked in the design of new technologies would agree that engineers who work in that environment need to be able to come up with creative solutions to complex problems. And it seems self-evident that such a skill set could easily be applied to the socio-political sphere.

Fascist governments, by their nature, wish to consolidate their power in their own hands. An easy way to do this is to co-opt or kill anyone who knows how the systems of power function, such as intellectuals who are capable of undertsanding complex systems and coming up with radical solutions for fixing problems inherent in that system.

The fascists will not kill them all. Just the ones who are disobedient.

No, they were not. There are plenty of technological developments in which Nazi and Soviet scientists were pioneers. Yes, the Western world led the globe in consumer technology. No, this is not solely a discussion of 'technology that makes PoD's life more convenient." The Nazis developed modern rocketry, and the Soviets were the first in space, to give clear examples.

And both were quickly eclipsed in those disciplines by Western nations, partially because of the intellectuals who fled those nations to live in free ones.

The Nazis were morons. Their methods were not universal, even among their contemporary fascist states, and they were rightly looked down upon by the majority of fascist intellectuals and leaders as vulgar and moronic.

And that somehow excludes them from the club? Or somehow suggests that killing intellectuals was restricted to Nazis?

South Korea was authoritarian until 1989, well past the peak of its development. Furthermore, North Korea's inefficiencies have a lot to do with the economic situation it is in. There was a time, shocking to you as they may be, where North Korean development was well ahead of South Korea, prior to the worsening situation in the Cold War and the authoritarian policies that led to South Korean development. In any case your example of North Korea is a clear strawman.

Even if what you say is true, there is no way you can pretend that N. Korean tech is still comparable. Obviously, any tech advantages that do come with fascism do not last very long, and are eclipsed by other problems, such as economic ones.

The American Armed Forces are responsible for nuclear power, modern ballistics systems, advances in satellite, GPS, and other similar technologies, as well as the internet. This within a hierarchical and authoritarian framework of the military.

We are not discussing that. Please do not attempt to shift the proverbial goalposts.

Your claim has absolutely no basis, and is nothing more than the manifestation of decades of systemic propaganda on the superiority of the liberal system common to Anglophone countries. What you are parroting to me comes straight out of the mind of a Cold War North American propagandist. He likely has it written somewhere in a little black book.

No basis except for the evidence to which I have linked, as well as the logical arguments I have made, you mean.

Also, you should not assume that I am anglophone or North American simply because my English is better than most native speakers.

[Fasces]

I assume you are Canadian because you are fucking a self-righteous Canadian bitch, and make no secret about it.

Franco's Spain was notable for its technological and intellectual backwardness as well as its executions of religious and political opponents.

Did it take you long to find that source on Google? "Franco Oppressing Intellectuals?"

Please. Franco's Spain had the second highest economic growth rate in the country, and the 1950-1970 period of technocratic control is well known. Hell, I come from a family of engineers that prospered in Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal, but go believing nonsense.

Franco's victory was followed by thousands of summary executions (from 15,000 to 25,000 people[35]) and imprisonments, while many were put to forced labour, building railways, drying out swamps, digging canals (La Corchuela, the Canal of the Bajo Guadalquivir), construction of the
Valle de los Caídos monument, etc. The 1940 shooting of the president of the Catalan government, Lluís Companys, was one of the most notable cases of this early suppression of opponents and dissenters.

Talk about shifting the goalposts. We're talking about engineers, are we not?

An oligarch seizing power from other oligarchs. Perhaps I should have been more clear and said that fascist governments replacing democracies are known for killing intellectuals.

We're not talking about intellectuals. We're talking about a specific component of the population, more commonly known as 'professionals' in the West. I could care less about some leftist poet, in context of this conversation.

No. I am fairly sure that anyone who has actually worked in the design of new technologies would agree that engineers who work in that environment need to be able to come up with creative solutions to complex problems. And it seems self-evident that such a skill set could easily be applied to the socio-political sphere.

That's why a majority of politicians around the world are engineers by trade. Well, they are in China.

And both were quickly eclipsed in those disciplines by Western nations, partially because of the intellectuals who fled those nations to live in free ones.

Yes, because the Nazi regime ceased to exist and the Soviet regime had less money. Neither are indicative of talent or capability.

If I remember correctly, it is the United States that depends on the semi-authoritarian Russia to get its men into space nowadays, and China who is likely to get on the moon again prior to 2020.

Or somehow suggests that killing intellectuals was restricted to Nazis?

I am suggesting that you are generalizing and broadening the scope of discussion. You claimed professionals could not survive or prosper in authoritarian/totalitarian environments.

Code: Select allEven if what you say is true, there is no way you can pretend that N. Korean tech is still comparable. Obviously, any tech advantages that do come with fascism do not last very long, and are eclipsed by other problems, such as economic ones.

North Korea is fascist, is it?

We are not discussing that. Please do not attempt to shift the proverbial goalposts.

My initial point, and please check my original response to your post, is that authoritarian hierarchies do not stifle innovation, while your claim is that free-thinking is necessary. The Armed Forces of the United States are an authoritarian heirarchy. I have not moved the goalposts.

No basis except for the evidence to which I have linked, as well as the logical arguments I have made, you mean.

Sure thing, PoD.

[Pants-of-dog]

I assume you are Canadian because you are fucking a self-righteous Canadian bitch, and make no secret about it.

Classy.

[Pants-of-dog]

Did it take you long to find that source on Google? "Franco Oppressing Intellectuals?"

Please. Franco's Spain had the second highest economic growth rate in the country,

A country has the second highest growth rate in the country? I will assume that you meant to write something else.

and the 1950-1970 period of technocratic control is well known.

There are two well known social phenomenons of those years that I can think of: one is Los Años de Hambre (The Years of Hunger) which lasted until 1959, and were marked by hunger, economi cproblems, lack of infrastructure and a host of other problems. This resulted from Franco following the Falangist proposals.

The second one, called the Spanish Miracle, is generally considered to be due to the efforts of technocrats, as you claim. And Spain did grow substantially, but Spain was stilll not as economically developed as most of Western Europe at the time. In other words, Spain was able to almost catch up to other nations when they moved away from fascism and towards a more open type of government.

Hell, I come from a family of engineers that prospered in Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal, but go believing nonsense.

Personal experiences are not universal.

Talk about shifting the goalposts. We're talking about engineers, are we not?

Not quite. We are discussing any intellectuals who are capable of analysing complex systems and then changing them in some way. Engineers of a certain type fit this bill, but they are not the only ones.

We're not talking about intellectuals. We're talking about a specific component of the population, more commonly known as 'professionals' in the West. I could care less about some leftist poet, in context of this conversation.

I was under the impression that Spain's class system was such that engineers and other professionals were part of the intellectual class.

That's why a majority of politicians around the world are engineers by trade. Well, they are in China.

While I doubt the factual truth of this particular claim, I am glad that you agree that creative engineers are a potential threat to fascist governments.

Yes, because the Nazi regime ceased to exist and the Soviet regime had less money. Neither are indicative of talent or capability.

As I said, any tech advantages that do come with fascism do not last very long, and are eclipsed by other problems, such as economic ones.

If I remember correctly, it is the United States that depends on the semi-authoritarian Russia to get its men into space nowadays, and China who is likely to get on the moon again prior to 2020.

Or the private North American companies now working with DARPA to make space travel even less expensive.

I am suggesting that you are generalizing and broadening the scope of discussion. You claimed professionals could not survive or prosper in authoritarian/totalitarian environments.

That is not actually my claim. Please reread my posts carefully. Thank you.

And here you are claiming that modern Rusia is semi-authoritarian and therefore deserves to be in the discussion. We can, if you wish, limit the discussion to certain specific countries, but please be consistent about it.

North Korea is fascist, is it?

More so than modern Russia.

My initial point, and please check my original response to your post, is that authoritarian hierarchies do not stifle innovation, while your claim is that free-thinking is necessary. The Armed Forces of the United States are an authoritarian heirarchy. I have not moved the goalposts.

Yes, you have moved the goalposts. Unless the military of a democratic nation has the ability to silence opposition through violent oppression, it is not germane to the discussion.

Sure thing, PoD.

Thank you for agreeing.

[Fasces]

There are two well known social phenomenons of those years that I can think of: one is Los Años de Hambre (The Years of Hunger) which lasted until 1959, and were marked by hunger, economi cproblems, lack of infrastructure and a host of other problems. This resulted from Franco following the Falangist proposals.

The second one, called the Spanish Miracle, is generally considered to be due to the efforts of technocrats, as you claim. And Spain did grow substantially, but Spain was stilll not as economically developed as most of Western Europe at the time. In other words, Spain was able to almost catch up to other nations when they moved away from fascism and towards a more open type of government.

This is exactly why talking to you is impossible. If a fascist government does give free reign to its engineers - you claim it has "opened up" and is no longer fascist.

Well, when your definition of fascist is "oppresses the professional class" then yes, PoD, all fascist governments oppress the professional class.