[DeadPresidents]

How then do you plan on getting people who don't really have an ethnic identity to get one? I don't really identify with any particularculture and my family has roots in several European cultures that I do not identify with.

Well see that's the problem with Ethnonationalism when you have a big racial group such as White Americans who have been used to just appropriating and not creating.

Which is the reason why I think a lot of White Nationalists tend to cling on to the whole Neo Nazi as a unifying force.

I will say that I believe White Southerners that are actually from the South have their own ethnic identity.

White citizens of cities like Chicago, Boston and New York really do have their own White ethnic identity.

But the rest of White America is kinda loss in the whole Multiculturalism Liberal Capitalist World.


It's kinda like that Dave Chappelle skit when he tries to figure out what White people eat...White people are kinda just unknown random race of people that have no real connections to anything observable.

Blacks, Latinos and Asians could easily divide the USA up into their own ethnic nationalist countries.

[Fasces]

Anyway, I don't really identify with the american identity.

Yes, you do - whether consciously or unconsciously. The very fact that you once called yourself a libertarian betrays it - libertarians are incredibly rare outside of those who grew up immersed in the American body politic.

[mikema63]

So parts of america will just be a wasteland in ethnonationalist terms?

I was never a good libertarian

[Fasces]

It was an example. You can't escape the cultural environment in which you grow. Have you travelled outside of the United States for any extended period of time? Sometimes, being immersed in an alien society is what is necessary to awaken the national conciousness and make evident the extent of effect nationality plays in your individual identity. There was an interesting paper I read a few months ago - I could try to find it if I looked for it - that identified that many of the leaders of nationalist movements in the 20th century came from peripheral environments where they would interact in greater degrees with foreigners, and become acutely aware of their identity through confrontation with that other.

[mikema63]

Miami is kind of like a foreign country.

Also it seems that dead presidents, at least to some extent, doesn't believe in an american identity either.

My step fathers cuban, but I certainly don't "get" cuban culture at all. My grandfather is a true blue southerner, but I find southern culture equally alien. I find cultural identity itself somewhat confusing, I can't even get the whole group psych thing down which made it so easy to break ranks with libertarians all the time.

[DeadPresidents]

So parts of america will just be a wasteland in ethnonationalist terms?

I was never a good libertarian :p

If we really did split America up on some ethnic level there would be certain parts of White America that would be so distraught and confused and other parts happy as hell.


But yeah, I think most Americans feel like you, like they don't really have a place and they are just there in America.


Fasces believes in civic nationalism which is what most Western countries go by anyway. As long as you obey the laws of the land and you agree with the philosophy of the country/citizentry you are part of the national consciousness.

America is obviously a civic nationalist nation that is full of state/city/niche nationalism.

There are some European countries that do give citizenship to White American citizens if they can prove they part of their disapora. So if you are significantly part German you could apply for German citizenship.

Rei and FRS are ethnonationalists.

[mikema63]

I have no idea how german I might be as I've never met my biological father. The other side is mostly english but that was many many generations ago they moved over.

[Fasces]

DeadPresident's, being black, likely identifies with a racial identity.

[mikema63]

Is he

Black americans don't seem to have a wonderful culture either.

[DeadPresidents]

I have no idea how german I might be as I've never met my biological father. The other side is mostly english but that was many many generations ago they moved over.

That sucks. I don't know if you could apply for English citizenship, it would be cool to try if you could verify it.

Miami is kind of like a foreign country. :hmm:

Also it seems that dead presidents, at least to some extent, doesn't believe in an american identity either.

My step fathers cuban, but I certainly don't "get" cuban culture at all. My grandfather is a true blue southerner, but I find southern culture equally alien. I find cultural identity itself somewhat confusing, I can't even get the whole group psych thing down which made it so easy to break ranks with libertarians all the time.

For me, personally I do not have a love for America but I have seen and experienced immigrants just willing to die for the country. But I think that's just because they came from a way shittier country.

For me, in a country that is so diverse and built on Republican/democratic principles, you have no choice to just be for your race/ethnic group or America will walk all over you. And me being a minority, to me it's only natural. So I watch other minority groups such as Jews, Mexicans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Chinese, Koreans and Indians, and they tend to put their ethnicity first.

I also observe Americans putting their political party/ideology first over the country itself.

So is there really an American identity...yeah...but it's not something that brings America together it's something that upholds the American system.

It's not like ethnonationalism which to me brings people together and create a loving bond between that ethnic group.

I lived in other countries specifically Japan and Japan just by specific customs I observed like leaving their doors unlocked, and the complete lack of immigrants and how hard it is to become a citizen or own property there, it seems to be more collectivist...just for the Japanese and they trust each other and distrust outsiders.

Is he :?:

Black americans don't seem to have a wonderful culture either.

Yeah, I am and Black American culture sucks ass. Either killing each other or being taken advantage of or being poor.


Only good things we have is our amazing athletic ability, our music, our entertainers and the fact somehow we are not extinct yet.

The other good aspects of our culture died after the 60s.

[mikema63]

Moving to england would be interesting but that really isn't my culture either.

I seem to have been left out of the entire idea of ethnonationalism, Its kind of like being told I'll just fall off the face of the earth if it were to replace the current system.

[DeadPresidents]

Moving to england would be interesting but that really isn't my culture either.

I seem to have been left out of the entire idea of ethnonationalism, Its kind of like being told I'll just fall off the face of the earth if it were to replace the current system.

Yeah....it seems like you would.

Aren't you the guy that really doesn't have a political ideology and you jump around a lot?

[mikema63]

No, I was a libertarian for a while and became a socialist of some sort or another (a bit of a technocrat too really), but Thats the only changing I've done.

[DeadPresidents]

No, I was a libertarian for a while and became a socialist of some sort or another (a bit of a technocrat too really), but Thats the only changing I've done.

That's big of a jump.

It's better off to be a mix of political ideas than to be a strict dogmatic person.

[quetzalcoatl]

I don't care about the biological aspects of ethnicity, race, or nationality. They are irrelevant. I care about identity, which is a psychological phenomenon.

The importance of the blood is esoteric hogwash.

I agree.

I would add that even ethnic identity is, and should be, fluid.

Evolution is a process, it is not an outcome. Human societies exist in dynamic balance; indeed they exhibit many of the aspects of a complex adaptive system, a type of structure whose properties have been intensively studied. The complex relationship between stability, robustness, and resilience should not be ignored.

Suffice it to say there is a constantly shifting balance between introduction of new elements and preservation of stability - there is no inherent stability in such a system and its balance must continuously adjust to new challenges. That we may be tipping too far in the direction of decoherent change is arguably true. However, societies that are deliberately designed to resist change cannot long survive in a competitive environment.

I believe this may at least partially account for the relatively short-lived nature of some fascist experiments. Ironically, a similar lack of adaptability handcuffed the Soviet experiment as well.

[Amanita]

What do fascists, particularly ethnic nationalism supporting fascists, believe about biology anyway. I hear a lot of talk from Rei about alleles and she seems to have something against gene flow. However, gene flow is a natural evolutionary force and there are very very few alleles in human beings that differ between populations.

The human species went through several bottlenecking events in our evolution leaving us nearly extinct and in one single small tribe in Africa. All human beings share the same root Y chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA sequences. When you actually compare the range of human genes between the whole host of human genes and then compare it to the same in another animal species you see that human beings are abnormally similar to each other. The effect of the bottle-necking was to actually reduce the variety in the human gene pool.

We are all very, very similar to each other, restricting the available gene pool is actually detrimental in the long term to a populations genetic makeup.

If it were just a simple matter of biology, there would probably be no need for politics. I think that much is obvious.

Justifying or falsifying political beliefs on such spurious grounds is more of a consequence of deep-seated political prejudices than a conduit to an honest investigation. They can be used to justify anything. For instance, one could easily note how evolution tends towards speciation and justify ethnic nationalism on those grounds.

In any case, your biological conclusions are mistaken in thinking gene flow ipso facto beneficial (genetic pollution is also a form of gene flow). Specialized communities can have more chances of survival if their particular characteristics play to their advantage in cataclysmic events. Gene flow is a possible consequence of population bottleneck, true. From that you seem to have leapt to the conclusion that gene flow can avert future population bottle-necking and extinction, which does not follow in any way whatsoever.

[mikema63]

I justified my conclusion with my understanding of how genetics works, as a biology student.

I have nothing against fascism and you seem to have dismissed my argument as an attempt to "destroy fascism", I merely question some of the recent arguments I've heard from the fascist quarter in regards to genetic purity and alleles.

As for your thing about genetic pollution are you suggesting that you would implement a society that would not select against undesirable traits?

[Amanita]

As for your thing about genetic pollution are you suggesting that you would implement a society that would not select against undesirable traits? :?:

The answer to this question, understood as it is written, is "no".

I've raised five points in my reply to your original post, which you have failed to address:

(1) The biology or natural state of things doesn't necessarily justify ideology
(2) In any case, some natural phenomena can still be used to justify ethnic nationalism
(3) Not all cases of gene flow are considered beneficial
(4) Specialized races are not necessarily disadvantaged in stochastic events
(5) From the fact that genetic drift predominates over natural selection in extraordinary circumstances it does not follow that it would be beneficial were it to also predominate in ordinary ones

[mikema63]

(1) The biology or natural state of things doesn't necessarily justify ideology
(2) In any case, some natural phenomena can still be used to justify ethnic nationalism

To start for these two I started this post in response to other fascists on the forum using biology to justify ethnic nationalism. 1 is certainly true but since they tried to use biology I wanted to argue the point (as a biology major)

(3) Not all cases of gene flow are considered beneficial

In the aggregate gene flow will always add evolutionary beneficial genes to the gene pool over time due to natural selection.

(4) Specialized races are not necessarily disadvantaged in stochastic events

I fail to see your point. No human race is specialized beyond a handful adaptations in regards to climate. I also do not see why we would wan't disadvantaged specialization when specialization implies evolutionary advantage. Also since stochastic event refers to a non-deterministic event I fail to see the point in saying something isn't necessarily disadvantaged by it since its randomly determined.

(5) From the fact that genetic drift predominates over natural selection in extraordinary circumstances it does not follow that it would be beneficial were it to also predominate in ordinary ones

Genetic drift never predominates over natural selection, natural selection is the most powerful evolutionary force. Allowing multiple ethnicity's to mix would not cause gene flow to predominate natural selection, only allow a wider variety of traits for it to work on.

Also you seem to have confused gene flow (allele migration between two populations) and genetic drift (random changes in the gene pool of a population due to bottlenecks, founder effect, and chance). They are two different evolutionary effects of five.

[Figlio di Moros]

Mikema, diversity actually hinders evolution. Too much mixing and miscegenation and new mutations can't develop, and particularly advantagous alleles get folded back into the gene pool.