[pheared]

God gave them free will, just like he gave us. Satan just turned evil.

He didn't see that coming?

[Truth-a-naut]

Satan just turned evil.

If God created everything then he must have created evil as well.

How can free will exist if a God created everything...

[smashthestate]

God did not create evil. The first glimpse of evil that we get, according to the Bible, is when the serpent tempts Eve to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree of knowledge. Because of his evil deeds, God said to the serpent:

"Because you have dont this,
You are cursed more than all
cattle.
And more than every beast of
the field.
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and
her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

Just as the serpent said, because Eve and Adam ate the fruit, they knew both Good and Evil. However, their free will existed from the start, otherwise they would not have *chosen* to eat the fruit.

[Truth-a-naut]

But didn't God create the serpent?

If he/it (God) created everything then I am sure he also created evil.

[smashthestate]

Evil is a creation of free will.

[Truth-a-naut]

But who created free will?

(hint who supposedly created all...)

[smashthestate]

God created free will.

However, God does not intervene with the free will of human beings. That is the ultimate gift. We have the ability to choose for everything. Eve had the ability to choose whether or not to eat that fruit. She did, and thus, Man was now aware of evil.

[pheared]

Free will is sentient?

I'll buy that evil is a byproduct of free will, but if you follow the critical path you still find the root of all evil is god.

[smashthestate]

Well if there was nothing that was indeed evil, then there would also be no free will. The only choice would be the "Good" choice. You see, without the existence of evil, whoever created it, there can be no free will.

[Truth-a-naut]

Well if there was nothing that was indeed evil, then there would also be no free will.

How are two choices (Evil/Good) really considered free will?
When you bring universality it starts to muck things up further.

I want to branch this off into another question, who here agrees that good and bad can only really be applied in past-tense?

[smashthestate]

I don't think I fully understand your question. What do you mean something can't be good or bad, but only in the past-tense?

[Truth-a-naut]

Yes basically.

[Falleen Prince Xizor]

There is no true definition of "good" and "Bad" in the classical sense.. they don't truly exist because none can exist without the other, it's a symbiotic relationship and therefore they are both a single, unified entity... The "Force" if you will... And i've posted this before but isn't free will just a cop out way of saying that god, if there is one, has no power in our daily lives, if at all?

[pheared]

Right. Unless you believe he/she/it will punish you in the afterlife (have to believe in that too) if you don't follow the "good" path. Even then it's only indirect influence.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

" Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil Spirit from the Lord Tormented him"
- I Samuel 16:14

"Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our Lord now command your servants, who are before you, seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre; and when the evil Spirit from God is upon you, he will play it and you will be well"
-Job 16:15-16

If the biblical God created good and evil and evil spirits are his servants, doesn't that interfere with free will? Someone has to give you these thoughts, interesting it comes from the very being that will punish you for giving into the very thoughts (temptations) that he created.

[Falleen Prince Xizor]

possibly, but the lutheran branch of christianity believe in predestination, so any good or evil in life is pointless, as your pathe is already laid out...
And how can god punish you in the afterlife over a fundamental flaw in human nature which HE/SHE/IT created... Either he/she/it fucked up bad, and it's not your fault, or God, creator of evil and Satan, root of all evil, are a single entity whose sadism would explain free-will perfectly....

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Satan was orginally one of the Archangles. However he became jelous of God and wanted to be Worshiped too. God saw this and basished him from Heaven into hell.

Satan in the Bible fell to the temptation of pride and was cast out of heaven (with a few others), but evil must have existed before him to allow him to make this choice.

The biblical God did create evil, he made it a point that he did. (I posted this elsewhere)

"I form the light and create the darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things"
ISAIAH 45:7

Evil is not a product of free will, it is a product of God.

The biblical God (assuming he actually exists) gave us the power of reason. Looking at the evidence reasonably, I would say God invented evil.

Here's a few more examples of the biblical God's evil:

"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
- Isaiah 13:9, 13:1

Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have spoken."
-Ezekiel 5:10, 5:17

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."
-Malachi 2:3


"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
-Ezekiel 9:5

Here's a few from Jesus:

"'But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'"
-Luke 19:27

parable) "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
-John 15:6


If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
- Luke 14:26

"Do you think I have to come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother- in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in- law.
-Luke 12:51

We give this book to children?

[smashthestate]

First off, Rickshaw, I don't know what version of the Bible you are using, but I have looked up all of these passages in The New English Bible, as well as the New King James version. A lot of the quotes are very innaccurate. For example:

"I form the light and create the darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things"
ISAIAH 45:7

The New English Bible has this translation:

"I make the Light, I create darkness,
author alike of prosperity and trouble."

As you can see this is a big difference, and context can mean a huge difference in meaning. I ask you, what Bible are you using? I am really interested to know.

Secondly, the quotes which you say proves God's evil also MUST be put in context. For example, you display this quote:

"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
-Ezekiel 9:5

You must explain the context of this quote, or of course it seems that this is ruthless. In this part of Ezekiel, seals were placed on the foreheads of the believers of the Lord and of Jesus, and anyone who did not believe in God and Jesus will suffer what is explained in this quote, and rightly so. Just as it says, people who are non-believers will surely suffer greatly.

All of these quotes must be put in context, Rickshaw.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

First off, Rickshaw, I don't know what version of the Bible you are using, but as well as the New King James version. A lot of the quotes are very innaccurate. For example:

1972 Thomas Nelson inc. 1972, USA, King James Version

I have looked up all of these passages in The New English Bible,

Is that the lite version of the Bible? Revisionism?

A lot of the quotes are very innaccurate.

You cited only one, that equals a lot?, the difference is in the publishers of the bible.

You must explain the context of this quote, or of course it seems that this is ruthless. In this part of Ezekiel, seals were placed on the foreheads of the believers of the Lord and of Jesus, and anyone who did not believe in God and Jesus will suffer what is explained in this quote, and rightly so. Just as it says, people who are non-believers will surely suffer greatly.

In response to this passage: "'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
-Ezekiel 9:5

And what exactly was the childrens crimes?

[smashthestate]

The New English Bible is no "lite" version, as you put it. It is indeed the opposite. I have read both Bibles and the New King James version is perhaps the most innaccurate translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls that exists. It's quite sad that it is the most widely used Bible. Almost all Biblical scholars who translate ancient Hebrew and Latin will tell you that The New English Bible is by far the most accurate.

Anyways, in response to your question about the last quote. Ezekiel asked the same question to God:

While they did their work, I was left alone; and I threw myself upon my face, crying out, 'O Lord God, must thou destroy all the Israelites who are left, pouring thy anger on Jerusalem?' He answered, 'The iniquity of Israel and Judah is great indeed; the land is full of murder, the city is filled with injustice. They think the Lord has forsaken this country; they think he sees nothing. But I will neither pity nor spare them; I will make them answer for all they have done.'

There you have it. Also, it's important to note that ignorance shall not be punished. This means that if someone sins, but doesn't know that it is a sin, they will not be punished. Also, it's important to note that all of the people who have accepted God and Jesus will be saved, for anyone with the seal will not be harmed. Because of this, it would be safe to assume that all of the "little children" are either mostly already saved by ignorance or by the seal, or the "little children" that end up slain are old enough and wise enough (according to God) to not be ignorant, and they haven't accepted the Lord or Jesus, and therefore they shall share the fate of all sinners and non-believers.

You cited only one, that equals a lot?, the difference is in the publishers of the bible.

I only cited one, but that doesn't mean the rest weren't inconsistent. Again, this is because I am using a different Bible, which I believe is more accurate, along with most Biblical translation scholars. But you have the choice to use whatever Bible you wish. Every quote you listed from the King James version was much different from the translation in the New English Bible.