[void]

Technically speaking, however, American "conservatives" are liberals as well.

[Demosthenes]

Ok, I'll bite how is that? From what most people here say about Europe I understnd that conservatives there are still just center, or near center-leftists... Most here seem to be qeniue rightists, unless I'm missing something.

[Proctor]

I would say that the current Labour Government of New Zealand (centre left) is conservative, because that's exactly what New Zealand governments have traditionally been; centre left. I don't think it's fair to say that conservative=right wing.

[Putinist]

I would say that the current Labour Government of New Zealand (centre left) is conservative, because that's exactly what New Zealand governments have traditionally been; centre left. I don't think it's fair to say that conservative=right wing.

There, there... I know what you're going through, comrade.

[A_Technocrat]

I don't think it's fair to say that conservative=right wing.

Well, that is what it is in North America. It seems that everywhere else, namely Europe, it's not the case. Probably in Europe 'right wing = Nazi = evil'.

[FCP]

Russia -- "conservative" = communist. Obviously it depends it depends on context.

American "conservatives" are liberals as well.

Technically when one looks at the economic sphere yes, furthermore yes, they may have come out of the liberal movement, but within the vernacular of this epoch they are not "liberals" as the term is usually bandied about.

[Demosthenes]

1. What a load of crap. Exactly how are conservatives' opinions being squelched by liberals? Are we using duct tape, pliers on mike cords, ? Conservatives have no shortage of outlets with which to spew their rhetoric. Fox, Limbaugh, etc.etc. This liberal believes in the "give 'em enough rope" theory, so spew away.

2. When it comes to name-calling, the conservative media wrote the book. See the aforementioned outlets for prime examples, "feminazi" comes immediately to mind. This is one case where liberals could learn something from RepCons. Then again, maybe we should just let you go on so your ignorance shows through.

Listen I never claimed both sides aren't a little guilty of slanting arguments to their favor. That's a natural bent anyone has when arguing. That said you mention two examples of conservative outlets. Basically AM radio and Fox news network. Now lets mention the liberal ones: CBS, NBC, ABC, Every major newspaper in this country (I mean the big 20) New York times, Washington Post, Philly Inquirer, etc.., FM radio, the internet, Hollywood movies, I can go on but I believe this establishes the point.

As far as the Limbaugh observation you obviously don't listen very closely to Limbaugh. The whole "Feminazi" thing is satire. Pure satire. Of course most people here don't seem to get satire so I guess I don't expect much. What Il Porko refered to was not Liberal satire but liberal demagogery of any conservative idea. (like cutting taxes means conservatives want to starve children and give the elderly the boot) To counter: I've seen plenty of Bush jokes floating around and I'm not pointing those out as being "...of a lower form of opinion" (to paraphrase) like you did in stating the term "Feminazi". Those jokes certainly would be viewed as satirical by any reasonable mind and therefore fair game under my above established grounds.

So I come back to my argument again. Why is that my refusal to by CDs by groups I disagree with politically or my happiness that baseball did the right thing in preventing Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon from speaking at baseball's Hall of fame (which is like a boycott) translate into inhibiting their freedom of speech like has been claimed by many media pundits? Particularly when there is an equal, if not more overwhelming bias coming from them on many other issues. If I really wanted to stir it up I would mention one other event that took place on this forum as a further example but in difference to Foxy I will let sleeping dogs lie.

[Proctor]

I really think that you are overestimating the hypocrisy of liberals Demo. Sure, some of them love to whine. You'll probably here from them a lot. That's because a whine is at a pitch that really sticks in your ears, and you just can't seem to ignore. Most of us aren't like that.

If you choose not to buy Dixie Chicks CDs, who am I to say that's wrong? I never liked them anyway. But suppose I did. Suppose you did too, but are really pissed off with what they said. Fair enough. Don't buy the CDs, and everyone (apart from maybe the Chicks) will be happy.

As for Robbins and Sarandon, I'm going to go with one of Boony's paradigms. They have the freedom to say what they want, and the Baseball League have the freedom to tell them where to stick it.

[Demosthenes]

Actually I agree that you seem to be very moderately liberal, which obviously doesn't bother me at all.

If you choose not to buy Dixie Chicks CDs, who am I to say that's wrong? I never liked them anyway. But suppose I did. Suppose you did too, but are really pissed off with what they said. Fair enough. Don't buy the CDs, and everyone (apart from maybe the Chicks) will be happy.

That's kinda my point. If I choose to boycott certain products why is that suddenly blacklisting or part of the "vast right wing conspiracy?" It isn't at all. These people (Dixie Chicks) choose to say what they said and I now choose to ignore them. No sinister blacklisting, no calls in the middle of the night from the President telling me the next action to take, just little ole' me pouring my cash into other areas. Will I make a difference? Probably not, but that's not the point. I know people like you don't think that. To be honest my original question didn't pertain to every single person who wears a liberal hat, merely the American extreme liberals who have tried to make the wishes of the average American people into something more sinister.

As for Robbins and Sarandon, I'm going to go with one of Boony's paradigms. They have the freedom to say what they want, and the Baseball League have the freedom to tell them where to stick it.

He does have a way with words doesn't he...

[Proctor]

Yip. Here's to Boondock!

To be honest my original question didn't pertain to every single person who wears a liberal hat, merely the American extreme liberals who have tried to make the wishes of the average American people into something more sinister.

Does anyone take them seriously? I got the impression that you were implying people here were the same as them, but I don't think anyone really cares. Hence no indignant cries of 'blacklisting.' Which really is just another word for boycott anyway, so what are they trying to prove?

While I'm rolling, who do you consider to be extreme liberals?

And this one is purely out of personal interest, where exactly would you stick me on the political spectrum?

[A_Technocrat]

While I'm rolling, who do you consider to be extreme liberals?

- Jesse Jackson
- Al Sharpton
- Hillary Clinton
- Micheal Moore
- Hedi Fry (Canadian MP)

- Everyone that lives in downtown Toronto
- People in and at gay pride parades
- Europeans

The last few are generalized, but since I haven't been around said people I base what I know from the media. So that will explain things.

[FCP]

Obviously you've never been around said downtown Toronto people because there are also a hell of alot of big business type people who live and work downtown who are far from what are considered to be "liberals". Case in point Rosedale, which is the richest, or second richest area of this country and houses alot of "conservative" types.

But I'm curious as to why you think homosexuals are radically liberal? Furthermore there could be an argument made for conservatives being "radically liberal". In fact, most * mainstream* parties on this continent came from the liberal movement.

[Proctor]

Jesse Jackson - Agreed
Al Sharpton - Is he the reverend guy?
Hillary Clinton & Michael Moore - Okay, I like both of them
Heidi Fry - Who?

[Demosthenes]

Sorry It took me so long to reply Proctor, To answer your question (and append Techno's list) I would add 90% of the so-called stars in Hollywood. Ted Kennedy, My persoanal least favorite Tom Dashele, Robert Byrd, etc... I can specifically begin to name the so-called stars if someone wants but really just pick a name out of a hat...

As for the political spectrum lets make it a scale of from -100 to +100 with the "+" being right and the "-" being left. I see you somewhere around -25 to -10. However a person could be -100 and still be reasonable, IMO.

Its more the lack of any other perspective that I find so frustrating amoung liberals. No matter where I see them on the spectrum. Its pretty much a simple platform: 1) conservatives are the devil, 2) the US is evil, 3) making money is wrong (even though some of the richest people in this country are Democrats I guess it doesn't count if your with the donkeys, 4) only the gub'ment can help poor little you, 5) oh and all guns are bad no matter whose hands their in... unless its somebody protecting them or someone in their employ. And that's about it. Very little substance.

So what I'm getting at is it's the liberal ideals that I challenge most, less so than the liberal him/herself. (once again I'm strictly referring to America, Europe and the rest of the world are a whole nother' ball of wax) Unless, of course, they start to piss me off...

[CrazyPete]

I think sometimes you conservatives, Demosthenes, are the most whiny of the them all. In America atleast. Can't you guys down there get along with out a war? In Canada it takes a hockey victory, so we don't have to kill people.

[Demosthenes]

Me whiny? I don't think so. *Stoooooooooop caleeeeng meeee whhhhhiiiiinyyyy*

In Canada it takes a hockey victory, so we don't have to kill people.

And speaking as a HUGE hockey fan jilted by the obvious liberal plot to give the cup to the New Jersey Devils I find that quite inaccurate. Why if the good guys had won the cup this year, (I mean the Philly Flyers btw) certainly all would be right with the world. And don't get too comfortable with that gold either, we'll be looking to take it back in a couple years...

Now quit bugging me, I have a MOD to work on...

[Proctor]

Fair enough. I certainly won't argue with any of those points.

But I am left wondering, if that is your view on liberality, why didn't you state it like that earlier? It would have saved a fair few conflicts from happening.

[Demosthenes]

That would have just been too easy, after all conflict is the spice of life... or was that sex or something... I forget which...