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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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By Euroman
#14158900
Why can't you do it? It's not me who came to here shouting "Britain must leave!" I said it before, want to leave, then leave. Stop trolling all over the net.


And if you want to be constructive, I am not stopping anyone on this forum to be.
By Thompson_NCL
#14158916
One needs only to read the bilge you post to see why no one would even bother to engage you in constructive debate. You're a poster child for everything the British dislike about the EU.

Euromang wrote:On a serious note, here is a wonderful article which comes to the conclusion that while Britain is threatening to leave Europe, Europe is already leaving Britain. No one in Europe is listening to the annoying British cry babies or interested in appeasing them. To sum it up, "Go away!"


Pathetic.

Ombrageux Edit: Ad hom removed.
By Decky
#14159485
And what do the Germans or French have to do with the EU?


That's an odd thing to say. :eh:

They are the two most powerful countries in the EU, the dual crown if you will. The EU exists to serve their interests, do you really think the EU cares about what one of the smaller vessel members think? The smaller members are their to benefit the bigger ones, it is an empire no different from any other. They just have better propaganda.

You may as well say what did Austria and Hungary have to do with the Austo- Hungarian empire.

There are also anti-EU elements within these countries.


Indeed just as there were British people who were against the empire even during its zenith. There are far fewer anti EU Germans and Frenchmen that British Eurosceptics and it's no surprise.

They benefit from the EU, we do not.

Even still, hatred of the EU does not entail hatred of the German or French peoples.


Of course not, that would be in contravention of PoFos rules and mission statement, I am litteraly incapable of such thoughts just as I am incapable of flapping my arms and flying.

If the EU is not suitable for the UK then it can leave, there is no need to be so hostile like you are being.


Cira 1940 "If the east Asian co-prosperity shere is not suitable for Korea it can leave , there is no reason to be hostile." :roll:

There is every reason to be hostile, we are part of the Franco-German Reich and despite the majority of us wanting out we are not out. We are being occupied, you even see EU flags in some places in this country. They have even bought our politicians.
User avatar
By Dr Cosmo
#14252469
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/

Image

The biggest improvement for gays came in South Korea with the United States and Canada also posting double digit increases in support of homosexuality. The Czech Republic, 2007's most gay accepting state, is now beaten by Spain and Germany as Czech support for homosexuality has dropped 3%. The biggest drop came in France where 77% now support homosexuality, a 6% drop from 2007.
Image[/QUOTE]
By Hirdmann
#14254911
Euroman wrote:I mean it's about time... I have been hearing this "UK WILL RUN AWAY FROM HOME" nonsense since 2007 or earlier.


Except, the "Home"-metaphor isn't an accurate one.
A more accurate one, would be where the child had been lured into a van by a group of people simultaneously promising candy and making extreme threats about what would happen if he/she didn't get in the van.... then being taken to a place far from home where unspeakable things poceeded to happen.

This is especially true for the smaller countries in the Union.

Trade? By all means, yes!
Federalism and loss of sovereignty? No!

My signature is not yet accurate in the literal sense. But it might become so....
By Baff
#14255402
I get why Euroman is sick of hearing us whine on. I really do.
I often feel the exact same way about Scottish Independants.
It's not like anyone who reads this here is begging us to stay or even gives a damn if we leave. It's not like he is any position to grant or refuse us our wishes. Just read our endless and repetative whingings.

I'm rather sick of my whining on about it.
And yet until this is addressed I simply cannot allow myself to wish well of the EU.
No kind words spring to mind. I know that it would be better to offer constructive criticism, a superior alternative, but I do. Abandon it. Imprison those involved in it.

In my mind I think it could have been a good thing but it isn't.
I think it could have been a great opportunity for us. But it has turned out not to have been.

I'd like to think that it might still turn out to be so for other people.
I would like people who want to be in the EU and want the EU to be a positive thing in their lives to get what they want. I truely would.
But they are my enemy. And the longer I remain without my freedom from their interference the stronger my emnity will become.

Malign scary people.
I would like to part company with them peaceably and as soon as humanly possible. But in all honesty I have no expectation of them ever allowing me to do so peaceably at all and so I must instead wish them all ill.
Tyrannise me and I will undermine your authority at every opportunity I have. I don't care who you are or where you are from. I don't care why you think it's OK to do it.
Next to the letters EU, you can expect to see disrespect from me. What goes around, comes around.
User avatar
By Dr Cosmo
#14410965
Why Europe works
Simon Kuper writes a weekly column for FT Weekend Magazine. He is based in Paris

Some days, I drop my children at school in Paris at 8.30am, and before noon I’m having coffee in London. This sort of experience is becoming quite normal in Europe. Bertolt Brecht, the German playwright, wrote during his 1930s exile (spent in Czechoslovakia, France, Denmark and Sweden) about “changing our country more often than our shoes”. Nowadays some Europeans change their country faster than their socks, especially in the “Eurostar triangle” of London-Paris-Brussels. This connectivity is most common among the elite but is spreading wider. Western Europe today is surely the most interlinked region in global history. That explains why – contrary to popular opinion – it remains the most successful region on earth.
Western Europe always was connected. Because of what the British historian Norman Davies calls its “user-friendly climate” – mild and rainy – the land is fertile. That has allowed people speaking different languages to live more closely together here than anywhere else on the planet. That creates networks. European exploration has also been aided by another geographical asset: seas. Malise Ruthven, a scholar of Islam, notes that Europe has “a higher ratio of coast to landmass than any other continent or subcontinent”.
EUROPE SPECIAL

Mobile Europeans have been exchanging ideas for centuries. The “scientific revolution” of the 16th and 17th centuries happened here because our scientists were near each other, debating with each other in their shared language: Latin. Copernicus, Polish son of a German merchant, wrote that the Earth circled the Sun. Galileo in Florence read Copernicus and confirmed his findings through a telescope. The Englishman Francis Bacon described their “scientific method”: deductions based on data.
The proximity of so many nations also brought frequent wars. Eventually, in 1945, the continent was separated. After 1989, when I began crossing the Iron Curtain, I had a series of shocks: the people on the other side weren’t exotic at all. Despite communism, they seemed distinctly European. I remember one eye-opening moment in Riga, Latvia, in 1992 soon after the country left the Soviet Union. I was renting an apartment on a courtyard. One evening, my landlady pointed out the neighbouring flat, which had belonged to the second secretary of Latvia’s Communist party. She described the crowds breaking into it during the 1991 revolution. The story was unusual – and yet the scene was familiar. I knew brick apartment buildings just like this in Amsterdam and Berlin, albeit in better shape. My landlady, an ironic young woman who spoke passable English, was as recognisably European as my East German fellow students at university in West Berlin in 1990-1991. Europe had survived communism.
From the 1950s – and especially after 1989 – Europe converted its unique proximity from a threat into an opportunity. On January 1 1993, the EU legally became a single market. By 1996, Ryanair, EasyJet and the Eurostar were carrying people around Europe. From Frankfurt airport today, you can fly within three hours to dozens of countries, containing more than 500 million people. That is the world’s densest network. For comparison: the only foreign capital you can reach from Tokyo within that time is Seoul, and from New York even Ottawa is further away.
Crossing European borders keeps getting easier. In 2006/07 a report for the European Commission found an estimated 780,000 cross-border commuters in western and central Europe. Today there are undoubtedly more. Some are Poles who have bought cheap houses in eastern Germany and travel to work in Poland. That was unimaginable in 1945, but one feature of post-1990 Europe is the fading of old national enmities; witness last month’s first state visit by an Irish president to the UK or the BBC’s international poll last year that identified Germany as “the most positively viewed nation in the world”. The Greek newspaper that depicted Angela Merkel in Nazi get-up was a marginal voice.
Admittedly, one form of interconnection still barely exists in Europe: labour mobility. Of the EU’s 506 million citizens, only 14 million (or 2.8 per cent) live in another EU state to their own. Very few southern Europeans have emigrated during the crisis. The number of Spaniards living abroad, for instance, rose by just 40,000 between January 2009 and January 2013, says Carmen González Enríquez of Spain’s Real Instituto Elcano think-tank. That’s fewer than 0.1 per cent of all Spaniards. And when Europeans do emigrate, they often go outside the EU. Ireland dispatches its many migrants chiefly within the Anglosphere: to the UK, US, Australia and Canada. Shared language still trumps shared European passports. Free movement of labour is a European reality only in London, Luxembourg and Brussels.
Rather, European mobility consists of countless daily exchanges, great and small. Europe today is a group of Germans descending on Maastricht to smoke pot in “coffee shops”. It’s Irish football fans in Dublin cheering on Arsenal and its German-Turkish playmaker Mesut Ozil. It’s Britons visiting Tallinn for a stag weekend or Flemings Christmas-shopping in Paris. It’s Danes living in relatively cheap southern Sweden and commuting to Copenhagen. English-language websites, Irish pubs and Mediterranean holidays have become pan-European staples.
These connections provide more than just pleasure (though pleasure matters). They also allow Europeans to learn from each other. That learning happens partly because European countries remain slightly different from each other. In the 1994 American film Pulp Fiction, John Travolta asks Samuel L. Jackson:
“You know what the funniest thing about Europe is?”
“What?”
“It’s the little differences. I mean they got the same shit over there, that they got here, but it’s a little different.”
“Examples?”
“Alright, well you can walk into a movie theatre in Amsterdam and buy a beer. And I don’t mean in no paper cup. I’m talkin’ about a glass of beer. And in Paris, you can buy a beer in McDonald’s. You know what they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Paris?”
Et cetera. Europe’s “little differences” encourage cross-border learning. This happens first in everyday life: look at the steady improvement of London’s nightlife, from something resembling Soviet-era Moscow 20 years ago, when police still banned most pavement tables as “fire hazards”, to something more like Barcelona today. London changed because more Londoners began visiting the continent and saw better ways of doing things. The spread of free bicycles and gay marriage are other examples of intra-European learning.
But this learning happens in high politics too. When George W Bush wanted to invade Iraq, the UK articulated the “Yes” position, and the French and Germans attacked it. Europeans could choose between contrasting views, whereas the American political class mostly united in pro-invasion groupthink. On employment today, there’s a debate between the free-market Brits, the Danes and Dutch with their flexible labour markets, and the southern Europeans, who protect jobs. Debates like that will eventually lead Europe to economic answers. Whatever Europe’s formula will be, it won’t be to copy China. Of course China is growing faster than Europe. It’s easy to grow fast if you starve and impoverish your people, and then suddenly introduce a free market with imported technology, international trade and almost no environmental controls. That’s catch-up. Europe is trying something harder: to achieve growth, and not just for the 1 per cent who are already well-off.
European countries also teach each other by setting each other political limits. Merkel, for instance, has chastised the Dutch far-right and helped oust Silvio Berlusconi as Italian prime minister. While Hungary threatens to abandon democracy, the European Commission labours to pull it back. Most inspiringly of all, as Kiev’s “Euromaidan” protests showed, western Europe has become a beacon to less happy countries. The post-communist era could have gone horribly wrong. After 1989, eastern Europe’s ex-communist countries could choose among various models to follow – including some nasty populist ones. Few of these countries had a democratic tradition. But those closest to the EU chose the European model. From 1995 to 2013, the world’s fastest-growing middle-income economies were the Baltic states, Poland and Slovakia, says Marcin Piatkowski, the World Bank’s senior economist in Warsaw. These countries grew faster even than South Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong. That was mostly because they looked at the EU, saw what they wanted to be and set about getting there fast. They copied European laws, and got billions in EU funds after joining the union in 2004. Now Europe can inspire Ukraine, Tunisia and Turkey after Erdogan.
. . .
This kind of cross-border learning helps Europe sidestep the apocalypses constantly foreseen by foreign observers. A decade ago, for instance, some Americans were predicting a European plunge back into fascism. In 2004, the US ambassador to the EU, Rockwell Schnabel, said European anti-Semitism was “getting to the point where it is as bad as it was in the 1930s”. Now that even most European far-right parties have binned anti-Semitism, Schnabel himself must realise that’s ludicrous. The American neocon dystopia of “Eurabia” – a Europe ruled by a vast fundamentalist Muslim population – hasn’t come true either.
Nor will the current apocalypse narrative of a Europe led by far-right parties. This will be trotted out again after this week’s European elections, when thugs wearing suits celebrate before the TV cameras. But, in fact, it’s remarkable how little headway these people have made, after nearly six years of Europe’s worst postwar economic crisis. Even most of their voters regard the populists as protest parties without answers. Because the European parliament is boring and lacks power, many Europeans treat Euro elections as a safe place to teach mainstream politicians a lesson. The populist UK Independence party, for instance, tipped to triumph in this week’s election, has precisely zero seats in Westminster. As the research and advisory group Counterpoint notes, Europe’s far-right parties haven’t risen en masse during the crisis. Some have gained votes; others have declined. (And even these parties have pan-European networks; witness the “pact” between France’s Marine Le Pen and the Netherlands’ Geert Wilders or the bizarre communal pilgrimage by several European far-right leaders to Israel’s Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in 2010.)
Foreign observers need apocalypse narratives to make Europe’s tame politics interesting. But most Europeans have been vaccinated against utopianism by their continent’s past. They don’t believe that armies goose-stepping to the national anthem will usher in Valhalla. Anyway, most Europeans – excluding young people in Mediterranean countries – still enjoy the safest, fairest and most comfortable daily life on earth. A few statistics:
• Most countries where people can expect to live to 82 or longer are European, according to the World Health Organisation.
• On the UN’s human development index, Estonia, Slovakia and even Greece still outrank Qatar, despite its wealth.
• Most “emerging economies” lag Europe by decades. Greek income per capita is double Brazil’s, more than three times China’s and 15 times India’s, according to the World Bank.
• Europe accounts for seven of the top nine countries on the World Economic Forum’s gender gap index, six of the top eight in Transparency International’s corruption perception index and the 17 countries with most income equality, according to the US Central Intelligence Agency’s ranking. In short, Europe still spreads its gains pretty well.
All this adds up to a European dream: dozens of nations living together in harmony and freedom, with unmatched exchanges across borders and with the world’s highest quality of life if not highest incomes.
The European dream appears quite stable. China may be heading for a bump in the road if its population ever demands democracy. Russia had a period of fast growth (with precious little benefit for most Russians) but what happens if Vladimir Putin is becoming a military adventurer? Europe looks to have those traumas behind it. Nor has it become an American-style plutocracy.
Europe still has lots to learn. A French friend recently attended a Californian reception packed with brilliant French engineers working in Silicon Valley. He came home thinking: “What would it take to bring those people back to France?” That’s the sort of question Europeans need to ask: how to convert their wonderful idea networks into Apples and Googles? London, Europe’s de facto business capital, with its budding tech sector, may be finding an answer. If it does, the rest of the continent will try to copy it, because nonstop cross-border learning is still the secret of Europe’s success.
User avatar
By Harmattan
#14411032
Baff wrote:...

A pro-EU article void of substance and arguments, denying reality, that will only convince pro-Eu tenants. 30% of Europeans are going to vote for anti-EU rhetorics but of course it just proves how the foreign press enjoys apocalyptic stories. And of course there cannot be any ground to the oppsotion against the merge of our cultures and nations when powers are transfered from national entities to an international, opaque and non-democratic entity.

And spare me the part about the European statistics: they were at this level before the unified market existed. Spare me also the part where all little innovations are gratuitously put on the benefit of the EU.
User avatar
By defrank
#14465387
Europe was a bad idea and we´re all paying for it. and apparently we have to go with it weather we like it or not,
why don´t we just start minding our own business and stop pretending the EU is working. Europe it´s about the banking, industrial and military complex taking over people´s freedoms.
By OllytheBrit
#14465396
The elephant in the room: a) The wealth of the EU's great-and-the-gormless, which wealth they have been accumulating for all the years on the gravy train, is in Euros (or Euroeaux ), so if it all goes tits up when the currency crashes, they'll literally become as poor as the Eurozone's peasantry. And b) It's the future 'pastures green' for has-been and never-will-be politicians - and friends and family - of all the member states to carry on milking the taxpayers for all they're worth for ever and ever. Amen.
By OllytheBrit
#14465709
Thompson_NCL wrote:I think you underestimate rich people. You think their savings are in EU banks? o_O


Point taken. Their wealth is probably in EU banks (why not?) but now the Euro is well and truly on the skids, they've probably already converted it into other currencies. I didn't think of that. They'd still like to keep the show on the road though, 'cos they'll be able to carry on adding more Euros to convert until the entire project crashes and burns.
By Atlantis
#14465718
OllytheBrit wrote:Their wealth is probably in EU banks (why not?) but now the Euro is well and truly on the skids, they've probably already converted it into other currencies. I didn't think of that. They'd still like to keep the show on the road though, 'cos they'll be able to carry on adding more Euros to convert until the entire project crashes and burns.


As long as I can remember, and that is probably longer than you can imagine, the British pound has been loosing value. Compared to the DM, the pound is worth about a fifth of what it was when I first visited the UK.

With QE by the BoE and the next real estate bubble building in London, this trend is likely to continue. Even in the City, nearly half the trade is in Euros. A substantial amount of your pension funds is likely to be in Euros too. And with Euro membership growing to over 20 countries in the next few years, Euro trade will increase while USD trade will decrease and the pound will fade into insignificance.
By OllytheBrit
#14465720
Atlantis wrote:As long as I can remember, and that is probably longer than you can imagine, the British pound has been loosing value. Compared to the DM, the pound is worth about a fifth of what it was when I first visited the UK.

With QE by the BoE and the next real estate bubble building in London, this trend is likely to continue. Even in the City, nearly half the trade is in Euros. A substantial amount of your pension funds is likely to be in Euros too. And with Euro membership growing to over 20 countries in the next few years, Euro trade will increase while USD trade will decrease and the pound will fade into insignificance.


I know 'they' want us to think everything in the Euro-garden is rosy, but to the best of my knowledge Germany is the only solvent Eurozone member; the others either have massive deficits, are desperately struggling, or are constantly having to be bailed out. If my stash were in Euros I'd offload tout de suite.
By Atlantis
#14465724
OllytheBrit wrote: Germany is the only solvent Eurozone member; the others either have massive deficits, are desperately struggling, or are constantly having to be bailed out. If my stash were in Euros I'd offload tout de suite.


Germany is not the only solvent EZ country, but the biggest. As for those struggling with austerity, the same can be said about the UK. At least most of the EZ countries are starting to address their structural problems. Both Spain and Portugal have achieved an export surplus, while the UK deficit is reaching astronomic proportions. Without Scottish oil to offset your trade deficit, the pound would be down to junk status pretty soon.
By OllytheBrit
#14465727
Atlantis wrote:Germany is not the only solvent EZ country, but the biggest. As for those struggling with austerity, the same can be said about the UK. At least most of the EZ countries are starting to address their structural problems. Both Spain and Portugal have achieved an export surplus, while the UK deficit is reaching astronomic proportions. Without Scottish oil to offset your trade deficit, the pound would be down to junk status pretty soon.


Well let's hope they make it, because if it does go under it won't be pretty. The fact remains, though, that just as political assertions which emanate from here in the UK, I don't believe a word that comes from any source, and for that reason I'm not convinced of its sustainability. It only needs for member states get involved in 'the war against terror' to drastically reverse the positive trend.
User avatar
By Harmattan
#14465740
Atlantis wrote:At least most of the EZ countries are starting to address their structural problems. Both Spain and Portugal have achieved an export surplus, while the UK deficit is reaching astronomic proportions. Without Scottish oil to offset your trade deficit, the pound would be down to junk status pretty soon.

Trade balance is not considered as a economic health indicator. At best it has consequences over the long term ownership of the country's assets but it is only loosely related to the economic health or the public balance. No economist emphasizes the trade balance. Germany does for political reasons.

The fact that Spain now has a positive trade balance simply results from the fact that consumption has considerably shrinked, which first hurt the Spanish private sectors. Spain currently has a 7.1% of GDP public deficit (it was positive before 2008) and its unemployment is growing because of all of the enterprises that have been destroyed during those years of balance control.

Controlling public balances in the midst of a crisis was stupid. This is why Europe is still in the red while the rest of the world got out of it three to four years ago. Now the next global crisis is coming (they come every 5-10 years) while we're still struggling with the old one.
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