[Albert]

EU just signed its death sentence with the Turkish deal. I do not know what they were thinking, but the public will not swallow that. If anything I will be astonished if the British public will vote to stay in EU after this deal has been made.

[JohnRawls]

How so? The deal achieved that most of the Europe wanted, to assume control over the process, to block the route for most unwanted immigrants, to strengthen our outside Borders.

The UK government itself is against leaving the EU so a chance that the UK will actually leave is pretty low in my book. The vote itself matter but not to the degree that you think. If there is a will then the process will be stalled until another vote can be done that will say the UK doesn't want to leave the EU. Also UK leaving the EU raises the question of Scotland leaving the UK again which UK itself doesn't want.

The better question is does Europe want the UK to be in the Union.(The answer is that it does for now) Currently we have the situation in the bag and under control as I see it.

[Albert]

I do not know if you know the full extent of the deal. Turkey is promised a visa-free travel to EU for their citizens, on top of that an "accelerated process" or just basically a process to membership in EU. What the EU officials basically did, is exchange 1 million migrants for potential 75 million migrants. All for the virtue that Turkey simply sat back and allowed migrants cross its border into EU via Greece and Aegean sea. EU just got blackmailed and played, in street language, it is called bitched.

It is humiliating..... people who run EU just showed themselves to be pathetic bunch in my mind. And the madcow Markel takes the cake in that.

PS. Oh I forgot to mention, Turkey also got 6 bil for it, twice then originally proposed. I mean can you bend over more?

[noemon]

I find the deal very positive and agree with John Rawls.

[JohnRawls]

It is humiliating..... people who run EU just showed themselves to be pathetic bunch in my mind. And the madcow Markel takes the cake in that.

The empire is expanding. Nothing new here

[Albert]

Unless you want Turks migrating to your neighborhood on mass and think that is cool. Sure 'Empire is Expanding". I dont want that.

Also I would like to mention. EU did not secure its borders. Borders are not secure because the legal and political structure of EU is flawed and impractical. Realistically speaking, what is stopping EU and Greece from turning the migrants back to where they came from by force? Nothing, they can do it today if they wanted too. What is stopping them is the legal and ideological structure of EU, that is what actually preventing them to do it. For some reason the EU leaders refuse to reform the EU, because of ideological reasons. Their so called "principles" and "human rights" nonsense, the so called "treaties" they self bind themselves with. It is a fucking cluster fuck of insanity this whole EU project is.

The Turkey deal essentially does promise to stop migrants leaving Turkish borders to EU via Greece, yet it is not EU country hence it is not EU border. It is trying to do, what EU should do, aka protect its border and provide security for its people. And why does EU not do this simple function to begin with? It can not even do that basic function, that is how impractical it is at the moment. I mean think about a simple fucking thing as to protect the borders EU can not fucking do.

I'm not even mentioning whole bunch of other flawed elements of EU.

So right now what you have is whole bunch of EU leaders like Markel, applying a bandage to a system that is a failure anyways. And unless reformed will continue to cause problems and fail to provide even the basic needs for its people. Like freaking security for crying out laud.

Also to mention, on top of that, EU blames Turkey for violation of "human rights", before even recent developments in Turkey, with Kurds, dealings with ISIS, crackdown on media outlets. There is even an important issue of Cyprus and Greeks. Despite all of that, EU promises them with a treaty, that it will proceed with EU membership process. I mean now they are renegading on their "principles" they so "irreversibly" claim to uphold.

They just signed their own death sentence. Any informed public will vote to leave this shit, that is why I will be more surprised if British citizens will vote to stay rather then leave the heck out of this insanity.

[Harmattan]

Here is a better article in French: inglorious pact between the EU and Turkey.

There is a cap of 72k refugees a year we will have to accept. While we can send back to Turkey as many migrants as we want. This is a critical point that was not mentioned in many other articles. Thanks to this that deal is not as worse as I thought. Another thing mentioned by the article is that they hope that instantly sending migrants back will break the smugglers' business model.

So we have to take 72k refugees a year, we have to give them 6 billions, we offer them free visas (but probably not that much Turks want to immigrate), and we are hastening the integration process of Turkey (which will never get integrated anyway). And in exchange we may be able to cut the refugees' flow from Turkey, although a large part will move to the Libyan-Italian road. It's a bitter pill but maybe it will be advantageous, we will see.

Its no less than a historic agreement.

- On paper, no illegal border crossing is possible anymore.
- EU members have formed a cohesive phalanx
- Mediterean border control Frontex and others others are strengthened

The first point is only valid thanks to the 72k cap you were not aware of, otherwise it would have been the worse treaty ever signed by the EU (which has a large collection of disadvantageous treaties). The second point is nothing new: international treaties are always commonly negotiated. The third point has nothing to do with this treaty.

[Naraku]

There is a cap of 72k refugees a year we will have to accept. While we can send back to Turkey as many migrants as we want.

The source that I read suggested that if the cap is reached, then that part of the deal is abandoned?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35840272

An EU source told the BBC up to 72,000 Syrian migrants living in Turkey would be settled in the EU under the agreement.
They added that the mechanism would be abandoned if the numbers returned to Turkey exceeded that figure.

And another

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/19/world ... .html?_r=0

For each Syrian migrant returned to Turkey, the European Union will directly resettle another Syrian from Turkey, with priority given to Syrians who have not previously entered, or tried to enter, the European Union, up to a total of 72,000.

If that number is reached — as it almost certainly will be — a new round of negotiations will be held.

[Harmattan]

The source that I read suggested that if the cap is reached, then that part of the deal is abandoned?

Oh, my bad.

Then I confirm that this deal brings us nothing good and is just yet another communication plan from the EU in order to claim that they solve problems without actually solving them, while causing even more problems.

Congratulations EU. At this rate I have no doubt they will manage to put Europe on fire to convince electors we need them as firemen.

[JohnRawls]

Also I would like to mention. EU did not secure its borders. Borders are not secure because the legal and political structure of EU is flawed and impractical. Realistically speaking, what is stopping EU and Greece from turning the migrants back to where they came from by force? Nothing, they can do it today if they wanted too. What is stopping them is the legal and ideological structure of EU, that is what actually preventing them to do it. For some reason the EU leaders refuse to reform the EU, because of ideological reasons. Their so called "principles" and "human rights" nonsense, the so called "treaties" they self bind themselves with. It is a fucking cluster fuck of insanity this whole EU project is.

Yet this 'clusterfuck' of a project managed to achieve something that hasn't been done since the peak of the Roman empire without resorting to military means. Unification of Europe on a scale that is larger than the peak of the Roman empire. That should speak volumes for itself.

The Turkey deal essentially does promise to stop migrants leaving Turkish borders to EU via Greece, yet it is not EU country hence it is not EU border. It is trying to do, what EU should do, aka protect its border and provide security for its people. And why does EU not do this simple function to begin with? It can not even do that basic function, that is how impractical it is at the moment. I mean think about a simple fucking thing as to protect the borders EU can not fucking do.

As said before, immigration in itself is not bad for the EU. Uncontrolled immigration is bad. The point of this deal is not to stop all of the immigration but to take it under control which it did achieve.

Unless you want Turks migrating to your neighborhood on mass and think that is cool. Sure 'Empire is Expanding". I dont want that.

To legally migrate you need money, usually people who have that money also have an education. This also ignored the fact that they have been migrating illegally all the time anyways, which again, puts the process under control.

So right now what you have is whole bunch of EU leaders like Markel, applying a bandage to a system that is a failure anyways. And unless reformed will continue to cause problems and fail to provide even the basic needs for its people. Like freaking security for crying out laud.

What are you talking about. We are enjoying the highest level of prosperity (Europe wide) than ever. Merkel is a fool for causing this uncontrolled migration issue but she did fix it herself in the end. How does Europe not provide basic needs for its people?

Also to mention, on top of that, EU blames Turkey for violation of "human rights", before even recent developments in Turkey, with Kurds, dealings with ISIS, crackdown on media outlets. There is even an important issue of Cyprus and Greeks. Despite all of that, EU promises them with a treaty, that it will proceed with EU membership process. I mean now they are renegading on their "principles" they so "irreversibly" claim to uphold.

They just signed their own death sentence. Any informed public will vote to leave this shit, that is why I will be more surprised if British citizens will vote to stay rather then leave the heck out of this insanity.

WHoa, we are not talking Turkish membership yet so this things will get addressed in due time. Sometimes you need to forget about some principles to fix the situation. AMerica did that many times durring the cold war, yet they won it in the end. Our leaders are reluctant to bring the topics up because of the deal we got going on but after it kicks in we can use the situation in Turkey as leverage, the same way they can use this deal as leverage right now.

[Harmattan]

Yet this 'clusterfuck' of a project managed to achieve something that hasn't been done since the peak of the Roman empire without resorting to military means. Unification of Europe on a scale that is larger than the peak of the Roman empire. That should speak volumes for itself.

And you know the problem with empires? They are impotent and inefficient political structures that end up relying on conquests to survive.

So congratulations for this imperialist and colonial stunt, but now the EU si going to ruin us all. Centuries of prosperity and influence, decades of peace and stability, they are all going to disappear. Europe will know wars, ruin and extremist dictatorships once again, in a large part thanks to the EU.

What are you talking about. We are enjoying the highest level of prosperity (Europe wide) than ever. Merkel is a fool for causing this uncontrolled migration issue but she did fix it herself in the end. How does Europe not provide basic needs for its people?

Our credit ratings have been constantly falling since 2008, the specter of deflation is looming over us and is already devouring Greece and some others, our financial industry is fragile, all the long-term indicators are red and everyone knows that we have no monetary policy, no economic strategy and that we are unable to take decisions before years.

Meanwhile a very big crisis is approaching and it is clear in the mind of every banker that Europe is the biggest ticking bomb. If the storm occurs and is as big as many renowned economists are afraid of, Europe will experience cataclysms one after the other. And it is very unlikely the EU will be able to act as it should in this situation, and will instead make everything worse as it did after 2008.


As for the results before that, the recent decades have been mediocre with a slow growth, and Europe has been mostly unable to create new champions during the latest innovation cycles. Some European countries managed to feed off other European countries (Germany vs France), Eastern Europe and Western Europe benefited of each other, Germany and Netherlands experienced a good decade but it is over, and that's all. Mediocrity is what best best describes the European performance.

Sure, the European countries are still rich because we spent centuries becoming rich. But the EU is destroying all of this. It takes time to destroy something as big as European economies, yet the EU has proved very efficient in this enterprise, creating instability and fragility, slowly destroying the foundations of our prosperities and democracies. I have no doubt they can succeed. After all chaos is what it takes to destroy identities and cultures, and impose a new reich. After a century of ashes surely they will rewrite the history books and call the EU genesis a visionary construction and a brilliant success.

The point of this deal is not to stop all of the immigration but to take it under control which it did achieve.

The point of this deal si to communicate. Pretend that something is done. It will achieve nothing. It is only valid up to 72k refugees and anyway we will have to accept 72k refugees in exchange! What part do not you understand in this?

WHoa, we are not talking Turkish membership yet

This is exactly what those negotiations are officially about. This is unambiguously written.

[Albert]

Yet this 'clusterfuck' of a project managed to achieve something that hasn't been done since the peak of the Roman empire without resorting to military means. Unification of Europe on a scale that is larger than the peak of the Roman empire. That should speak volumes for itself.

Look I'm not black and white about the EU. Yes, there are good things the project has accomplished like economic common market, stability and peace. However there is the the political and ideological side of EU, that is the 'ckusterfuck' I'm talking about. This whole 'progressive' pursuit via social engineering that EU indulges in is insane, their whole self legal binding "Human right treaties", "irreversible" freedom of movement of people and other shit, their drive to circumvent national governments so EU can make its own polices. This is where EU really begins to get ugly. On top of that, their dictatorial and uncompromising attitude does not help this aspect of things.

This is visible in this migration crisis like day and night. Migrants flowing through the border right now, are not stopped because it is not possible, but because EU officials through their legal and ideological self imposed bindings refuses to do it. They will cry "Oh, it is impossible to control this migration and refugee flow". Of coarse it is fucking possible, it is because EU officials are a whole bunch of lunatics that is why it is "impossible". This is impractical and needs to reform. This is why you have countries like Poland and Hungary in open revolt over this. Who ask, why can we not have common market, peace and stability through European co-operation. Yet still be able to preserve our traditions, cultural identity and self-determination? Basically why can we not have EU without ideological/political non-sense and dictatorial enforcement of it? Britain, because they can afford it, went even further, to attempt to leave EU all together unless EU reforms. Even though EU granted this so called "special status" to Britain, I do not really know how much grain of salt it is actually worth though and doubtful it will convince the British general public to stay in EU. Mind you, in Britain it is not just the general public that is in revolt against the EU clusterfuck, but also parts of the political class.

As said before, immigration in itself is not bad for the EU. Uncontrolled immigration is bad. The point of this deal is not to stop all of the immigration but to take it under control which it did achieve.

I agree, I do not know how much I agree with you, but I'm also of opinion that in principle immigration is not bad. I personally do not mind cosmopolitan places, they are good places of cultural exchange of ideas and tend to produce cool places to live in. However, migration that threatens security, cultural integrity of the people, and that brings instability and disorder, is obviously bad in my opinion. EU is failing right now and has been for some time to achieve immigration that does not bring forth problems with it. And as I said, it fails to achieve that, not because of practical reasons, but because of ideological ones.

To legally migrate you need money, usually people who have that money also have an education. This also ignored the fact that they have been migrating illegally all the time anyways, which again, puts the process under control.

Legal migration of Europe is screwed up also and needs to reform.

What are you talking about. We are enjoying the highest level of prosperity (Europe wide) than ever. Merkel is a fool for causing this uncontrolled migration issue but she did fix it herself in the end. How does Europe not provide basic needs for its people?

Tell me about Greek, Italian and Spanish prosperity. And Markel fixed shit, the only thing she did was apply a bandage with hope the wound will not bleed again. Even though she is not fully to blame for that wound, as there was already structural problems to begin with, yet as a leader, especially a one who had most ability to fix the problem even before it came about, she should takes the most blame for it. Not to mention the structural problems of EU are not fixed, and the problem with illegal migration can arise again. If Turkey does not renegade on the deal then migrants can start flowing through other point to the continent again. The problems still continues and has continued for decades now, it is just now blew up to the proportions where it is impossible to ignore and sweep under the rug.

WHoa, we are not talking Turkish membership yet so this things will get addressed in due time. Sometimes you need to forget about some principles to fix the situation. AMerica did that many times durring the cold war, yet they won it in the end. Our leaders are reluctant to bring the topics up because of the deal we got going on but after it kicks in we can use the situation in Turkey as leverage, the same way they can use this deal as leverage right now.

What principles did Merica renegade on to win the cold war, I'm curious?

If you forget principles, then it shows either two things, there is something wrong with you or the principles. Or both. With EU right now, it is both. But for successful functioning of society and diplomacy, you need principles, otherwise it will just be incoherent dysfunction nonsense like the EU structure is right now.

[noemon]

This is why you have countries like Poland and Hungary in open revolt over this. Who ask, why can we not have common market, peace and stability through European co-operation.

Yeah man I'm sure far-right populism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Yet still be able to preserve our traditions, cultural identity and self-determination?

This crisis is the only thing capable to make us preserve our traditions and cultural identity. Our traditions have been under constant threat by reductionism, nihilism and bland Hollywood hipsterism.

Oh, my bad.
Then I confirm that this deal brings us nothing good and is just yet another communication plan from the EU in order to claim that they solve problems without actually solving them, while causing even more problems.

All these conditions apply only to Syrians, for everyone else the numbers to be returned are unlimited and the numbers to be accepted are 0.

[Albert]

Yeah man I'm sure far-right populism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Do you support the current Ukrainian government?

[noemon]

Not even with a gun in my head.

[Albert]

So I'm guessing that means, no. Well I was just going to point out, Maidan was pretty populist, to a point it overthrew democratically elected government and EU cheered them on. Populism is a word that political ruling class uses, when people want something political ruling class does not.

Today you have people challenging the ideological structure of EU and of many national governments in Europe. Because of their ideological thinking many European leaders can not compute in their heads why they are being challenged and can not see why they are fucking nut jobs. So they only thing they see to do next is yell populist. It is just another way of avoidance, before that they were covering shit up, but that blew into their face eventually. This will also fail, cause they have to face up to the fact that there needs to be change happening. Or of they continue like this, sooner or later they will be just thrown out of office by force if necessary, aka revolution.

[noemon]

Poland and Hungary do have far-right populist governments regardless of how ridiculous other EU leaders themselves might be in other regards.

The Polish and the Hungarians are also the number one welfare shoppers in the EU. Their welfare shopping interests are under threat by other people and are clutching onto them with tooth & nail, lastly their anti-immigrant populism is the worst kind in the Union for the simple reason that no migrant has migrated or wants to migrate there anyway.

[Albert]

We are getting confused in definitions now.

Look, in the end democracy is populism. The way the EU officials use it and you now, is when people vote or do something you find refutable.

Hence you call democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary as "populist".

[noemon]

No, I call these racist Eastern-European leaders far-right populists because they are and their populism is what galvanises the ridiculous racism in their electorates who are not under existential threat even if they open their doors far & wide for the simple reason that no-one wants to migrate there anyway.

The founders of the EU who were also democratically-elected were not far-right populists but people who compromised and implemented rationalism to bring about change in the extremely racist European mindsets. Their vision is under threat, not by immigrants but by their descendants.

[Albert]

So what is the point of democracy then? If society is just filled with whole bunch of bacist rigots and we need an "enlightened" crew to lead us all, just have a fucking dictatorship and put a pretty EU star flag on it. You sound like a modern politicians who just does not get why people do not like the wonders of multiculturalism and the "new" wonderful "prosperous" society. "It just does not make sense, why not? They must be racist. That is the only plausible conclusion". omg when is this going to end........