[Rakshasa]

Europe is slowly waking up now. This is very nice to see.

[Andrew_G]

Here in Israel there is no discrimination against Muslims at all. Paradoxically.
I think when Muslims will REALLY denounce and struggle against terrorism and violence, the image of their religion will be more tolerable in Europe.

[Ombrageux]

AG - No discrimination at all? I have some difficulty believing this given that a majority of young Israelis do not believe in equal rights between Jews and Arabs.

[Andrew_G]

Ombrageux - do not believe this propaganda. Israelis are generally much more tolerable than what is depicted in your link. And there is no discrimination of Arabs by the state. However, the image of Arabs and Muslims here in Israel is heavily corrupted by their anti-state and terrorist activity. What you cite reflects their intolerance against Jews rather than vice versa, but as usually it is depicted vice versa.

This is a greatest paradox of propaganda:
Those who vehemently claim that others are sinners are exactly such sinners themselves.
That is, real terrorists vehemently claim that Israelis are terrorists.

A huge majority of simple-minded public is caught by this catch and believes them, and this is artfully exploited by the corrupted media. You can see some other examples of this corruption, with some analysis, in my other posts here.

[Dave]

I am ashamed of my country when our evil government issues reports like these. Is the United States government the world's leading advocate of the evil doctrines of multiracialism and multiculturalism? The document in question is a dagger aimed at the heart of Europe, and we should be ashamed of allowing our government to engage in this.

clearly we need a return to the 'good ol days' when non-christians/non-whites knew their place. Damn this new-age tolerarnce - bring back the pogroms and the inquisitions and the genocides - clearly there wasn't enough of it over the last 1000 years.

Indeed. Tolerance is the virtue of the senile. It's time to cleanse the filth and purge the rot.

[SHILD]

When the pot calls the kettle black, even if it's just the same as it alleges, the kettle still remains black. Hypocricy is not a refutation of an argument.

The US may or may not be every bit as biased against Muslims as it reports Europe is - but Europe still is doing plenty to try suprassing the muslim minority within it, but somehow remain in the bounds of their own stated ideals of equality. The real question is, will ever they have the guts to do something outside of these bounds?

[DubiousDan]

Here in Israel there is no discrimination against Muslims at all. Paradoxically.
I think when Muslims will REALLY denounce and struggle against terrorism and violence, the image of their religion will be more tolerable in Europe.

Yes, and there are Americans who will actually believe this.
Of course, Muslims have the same opportunity to immigrate to Israel as Jews, right? Even Muslims who where born in the land that is now Israel are denied entry while Jews from the rest of the World have a free pass. Yeah, equality.
And of course, the Muslims who serve in the military serve in combat units right along with Jews, right?
An Israeli can get a gun permit just for asking, and of course a Muslim can as well, right?
Actually, why is an Arab called an Arab in Israel, while a Jew is called an Israeli? No discrimination there.
It’s official policy that Israel is a Jewish state. Of course, when Hitler decided to make a non-Jewish state, that was racist, but when the Jews make a Jewish state, that isn’t. Doublethink is such a wonderful tool. Of course, in the United States, we have something better. Nonthink, it goes beyond Doublethink, just believe what you are told to believe by Fox News. Saves all the stress from actually thinking.

Europe won’t tolerate the Muslims as long as their beliefs make them incompatible with the European social economic system. I doubt if most Europeans are all that sympathetic towards Israel, and I suspect that most Europeans are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. That is, until the Palestinians show up in their countries. Ironically, most of the same characteristics that make the Palestinians unacceptable are the ones that made the Jews unacceptable in the old days.

Where I live, El Centro, CA, USA, the Muslims here are generally educated upper class professionals, and they are quite respected. Our local Junior College athletic teams are called the Arabs, and after 9/11 and the hysteria resulting from Bush’s power grab, there was agitation by the stupes to change their name. Astonishingly, reason prevailed and they are still the Arabs.

My cardiologist is a Pakistani, born in Pakistan, and is probably the smartest man I’ve ever met. He is also one of the most decent. Other medical specialists that my family visit are Muslims as well. Here, in this community, the national idiocy has not prevailed. It isn’t due to the intellectual superiority of the locals, it’s due to the intellectual and moral superiority of the local Muslims.

I am not a Muslim, nor am I a Jew. I have a very high opinion of Jews, even Zionists, as long as it is not related to Zionism. I don’t see a lot of difference between Zionism and National Socialism. It wasn’t always that way, but after Begin and Shamir, what was left? Sure there are decent Israelis, there were decent Germans in 1939 too.

In spite of the local Muslims, I have a very dim view of the governments in most Muslim countries. Since I live in the United States, it’s a little hard to throw stones.

[Ombrageux]

DD - Where have you been all my life?!

[Disclaimer: Zionism is a racism but calling it National Socialism is a little off, I think.]

[Mike Powell]

This is excellent. I hope the West's intolerance of Islam continues to rise.

Then consider you just made Hitler and his henchmen, cheering in hell.

[QatzelOk]

Then consider you just made Hitler and his henchmen, cheering in hell.

You're assuming Hitler was more of a racist than the winners of World War Two... who quickly colonized the Middle East, and went on an international war bender that has lasted right up until the present.

France, the UK and the USA have been the primary producers of anti-Arab hate literature throughout history, with pro-Israel Hollywood providing the best recent examples of Orientalism.

[SHILD]

And of course, the Muslims who serve in the military serve in combat units right along with Jews, right?

Yes. I had a muslim soldier myself.

An Israeli can get a gun permit just for asking, and of course a Muslim can as well, right?

No, you can't have a gun without good reason (usually involving your job and place of residence). Usually you have to have been in the army as well, see above.

Actually, why is an Arab called an Arab in Israel, while a Jew is called an Israeli? No discrimination there.

Israeli arabs can call themselves whatever they want. As can anyone. Otherwise it's to distinct them from the majority, which is natural enough.

That's all pretty ignorant of you, y'know. I'm not sure what kind of picture of Israel you have in your mind exactly, but whatever it is it seems to be pretty skewed.

[Mike Powell]

Here in Israel there is no discrimination against Muslims at all. Paradoxically.
I think when Muslims will REALLY denounce and struggle against terrorism and violence, the image of their religion will be more tolerable in Europe.

In my opinion, what Muslims in western world suffers right now may be equal to antisemitism sentiment that flourished from medieval age till today (although modern Jews are fare better than their ancestors).

Muslims (Arabs especially) and Jews must cooperate together to silence this ethnic abuse as both ethnics suffers the same mistreatment from the majority's ignorance (one at medieval time and one in modern era). Both of them pray the same god and has the almost same religious custom, but they still fight each other till now. I wonder.

[DubiousDan]

No, you can't have a gun without good reason (usually involving your job and place of residence). Usually you have to have been in the army as well, see above.

You are correct. I was in error. My information was from Mossad Ayoob, an internationally recognized firearms expert who has family in Israel. Apparently, his information is not on a par with his reputation. I did a little more checking. As you stated, I have never been to Israel. I have noted your posts in the past. You seem to be a fair minded man and I respect your opinion.

Yes. I had a muslim soldier myself.

I have read that Arab citizens serve in support capacity in the military rather than in combat capacity. Was your Muslim an anomaly or is this standard Israeli military policy? In other words, are Arab Israelis fully integrated into the IDF? I’ll take your word on it, but I would appreciate a cite for my own information. I really try to be informed on these issues. I once spent a lot of time trying to get the Israeli viewpoint in the Arab Israeli conflict. In the US that’s a lot easier than getting the Arab viewpoint. However, I found that the best criticisms of the Israelis were written by Israelis.

Israeli arabs can call themselves whatever they want. As can anyone. Otherwise it's to distinct them from the majority, which is natural enough.

That's all pretty ignorant of you, y'know. I'm not sure what kind of picture of Israel you have in your mind exactly, but whatever it is it seems to be pretty skewed.

Valid point. I plead guilty as charged. However, it is not intentional, I assure you. I have made a considerable effort to be informed on the issue. There is a lot of pro-Israeli propaganda in the US. In addition, you probably have noticed that some of the Israelis on the Forum tend to give a skewed impression of Israelis.

If I could afford it, I would take a trip to Israel. However, it would have to be for more than a week or two. I’d be willing to take the time, but my bank account isn’t.

However, how do you explain the fact that Israelis have elected Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, Binyamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon as Prime Ministers. As far as I know, all of these men believed in a totally Jewish state of Israel. Am I in error here?

[KurtFF8]

Wow, the only thing I can really do for this thread is recommend Slavoj Zizek's book Violence and specifically the fourth chapter which deals extensively with Western "tolerance" and the entire debate around the "clash of civilizations"

Zizek makes an excellent argument to how the conservative approach to "the Muslim Question" is just so obviously full of racism and reaction, while the "liberal tolerant" response doesn't offer a valuable alternative.

[DubiousDan]

DD - Where have you been all my life?!

[Disclaimer: Zionism is a racism but calling it National Socialism is a little off, I think.]

Looking at rejection slips. I finally gave up. If any of my books had been published, then my ideas wouldn’t seem so strange.

I didn’t call Zionism National Socialism. I said I didn’t see a lot of difference between the recent brand of Zionism and National Socialism. You may have read Mein Kampf, if you have, reflect on it. Hitler had his chosen people, the Germans. Hitler needed land for his chosen people. His solution was to take it from an inferior people, the Slavs. They weren’t worthy of it. Hitler believed in a Germany for Germans.
As for his politics and methods, pull the biographies on Shamir, Begin, and a chap named Martin David Kahane. You might look up the Stern Gang, the Irgun, the JDL, and Kach. Shamir and Begin became Prime Ministers in Israel. Kahane was elected to the Knesset. While Kach has been banned in Israel after a particularly bad bit of nastiness, Kahane’s followers are in the Knesset.
The JDL is still open for business in the United States and is not currently listed as a terrorist organization. After all, we have a Democratic administration. To the Democrats, Zionist Extremism is an oxymoron.

When Begin won the Nobel Prize for Peace, Hitler was probably laughing in Hell or Valhalla, take your pick.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Deeds speak louder than words.

[Mike Powell]

You're assuming Hitler was more of a racist than the winners of World War Two... who quickly colonized the Middle East, and went on an international war bender that has lasted right up until the present.

France, the UK and the USA have been the primary producers of anti-Arab hate literature throughout history, with pro-Israel Hollywood providing the best recent examples of Orientalism.

Historically, Hitler has made the best example of racial, political and religious discriminating policy. Under his leadership, Gypsies, Slavs, Blacks, Jehovah Witness, Communists, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other which not represent slight trait of pure Germanic gene is considered untermenschen or sub-human.

Believe it, if those neo-Nazi freakshow finished their dirty works on Jews, they'll definately turn their hand on the members which I had mentioned. They will, it only depends how far they'll go.

[QatzelOk]

Historically, Hitler has made the best example of racial, political and religious discriminating policy. Under his leadership, Gypsies, Slavs, Blacks, Jehovah Witness, Communists, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other which not represent slight trait of pure Germanic gene is considered untermenschen or sub-human.

This is only true in the Anglosphere's literature.

Meanwhile, the Anglosphere spent a few centuries killing and dominating other races, and endulged in more ethnic-cleansing and genocide than Hitler could have accomplished in four-and-twenty reichs.

[SHILD]

I have read that Arab citizens serve in support capacity in the military rather than in combat capacity. Was your Muslim an anomaly or is this standard Israeli military policy? In other words, are Arab Israelis fully integrated into the IDF?

He wasn't an arab, actually, he was cherkessian. They have to enlist, just like everybody else but the arabs, and they (along with the druze, bedouins, various non-arab christians and other minority groups) go through the same filteration process as any other Israeli citizen and find themselves in all the various units. Mine was a volunteer unit, so he had to ask to be in it.

Arabs are not enlisted in the army by force, but they are free to volunteer. Some do, but it's rather a rarity. I haven't met any in my service. I don't know the official numbers. When they do volunteer they can go through the same process as anyone else and, again, find themselves in whatever unit they can get in. I would imagine it would be hard for them to pass security screening to get into any sensitice units, though.

From conversations with Israeli arabs in Jerusalem, where my home is, I gather that it's simply a bad move for them to enlist, as it is at best frowned upon and at worst life-threatening. I've met several that wished they could enlist, not for any patriotic reasons but for their own sakes (one wanted to be a pilot. A waste that he couldn't be just because of what his neighbors would say). Some join the police forces instead, and that's a pretty common sight in Jerusalem.

how do you explain the fact that Israelis have elected Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, Binyamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon as Prime Ministers. As far as I know, all of these men believed in a totally Jewish state of Israel. Am I in error here?

None of these men are as extreme as you seem to think. Begin signed a peace treaty with Egypt, giving up all of Sinai for it, which isn't exactly an extremest move. Same for Sharon and his Gaza pullout. Shamir cool-headedly absorbed Iraqi scud missiles with silence. Netanyahu is, as we speak, freezing settlements builds. None of these men has ever made a move against Israeli arabs. Yes, they're all rightists, which translates to alot of economic changes from the socialists on the other side of the Israeli political map. None of them is exactly Hitler, y'know. All that aside, there are many reasons to vote for a party other than just one issue. I voted for Netanyahu for economic reasons mostly.

You have to keep in mind that as far as most Israelis are concerned, the palestinian situation is so bleak anyway, there's so little to talk about or anyone to talk to, that it might as well be a non-issue. Anyone can promise peace, but its been a vacant promise for decades now. Why not concentrate on more important things to us, like education and religious freedom and immigration and a thousand other things that actually matter to the daily lives of all Israelis?

As a side note, you seem like a person that can actually hold a discussion honestly, which I appreciate.

[DubiousDan]

Arabs are not enlisted in the army by force, but they are free to volunteer. Some do, but it's rather a rarity. I haven't met any in my service. I don't know the official numbers. When they do volunteer they can go through the same process as anyone else and, again, find themselves in whatever unit they can get in. I would imagine it would be hard for them to pass security screening to get into any sensitice units, though.

In the US, enlistment is voluntary. Induction is involuntary. I think I’ve a problem with your terminology. It seems that Israeli citizens, like the citizens of Switzerland, have to belong to the national militia. The airforce is voluntary, but not the IDF. Oh, you can join, but every male Israeli has military obligations. Correct me if I’m wrong. However, Arabs (Palestinians) are exempt. It seems that its not religion that is the factor, but ethnicity. So Muslims are OK, as long as they aren’t Arabs (Palestinians). This is not the same as the American propaganda. With us, it’s radical Muslim extremists that are the bad guys, because after all, the Iranians aren’t Arabs. They’re Persians, well, mostly.
In Switzerland, all male citizens have military obligation. In Israel, there is a subclass of male citizens that don’t have military obligation. Is that correct?
That to me would indicate that they are not full citizens.
Any corrections or clarifications would be appreciated.

None of these men are as extreme as you seem to think. Begin signed a peace treaty with Egypt, giving up all of Sinai for it, which isn't exactly an extremest move. Same for Sharon and his Gaza pullout. Shamir cool-headedly absorbed Iraqi scud missiles with silence. Netanyahu is, as we speak, freezing settlements builds. None of these men has ever made a move against Israeli arabs. Yes, they're all rightists, which translates to alot of economic changes from the socialists on the other side of the Israeli political map. None of them is exactly Hitler, y'know. All that aside, there are many reasons to vote for a party other than just one issue. I voted for Netanyahu for economic reasons mostly.

I have a problem with this. At one time I did a lot of research on Israel. I even read a book by a man who claimed to be a member of the Stern Gang. Everything I could check, checked out.
I read the history of the Irgun and the Stern Gang. I read the history of the creation of Israeli dating back to Baron Rothschild’s settlements and before that to the beginning of the Zionist movement.
A lot of it is fuzzy at the moment, but Shamir’s and Begin’s role in this seems pretty clear. Those men were terrorists even by Jewish standards. At one time David Ben Gurion and Begin were looking at each other over rifle sights. That was the time when Begin showed up with the Czech arms.
You are an Israeli, you should know far more about the history of your country than I do. Why do we have such conflicting views on these two men? I won’t post the usual posts on Jewish terrorism, I’ll assume that you are aware of the substance of those posts.
Do you feel that after the state of Israel was recognized and its existence assured by the US that these men became moderates? Or do you feel that these men were always moderates?

Also I believe Sharon is referred to by some Israelis as the Butcher. I believe I’m aware of the reason for that. Ironically, Begin was in charge at that time. A similar piece of work went down when Begin was in charge of the Irgun. Coincidence, perhaps?

As for Begin’s peace prize, I believe he deserved it about as much as Yasser Arafat did his.

I believe that there is more opposition to the messier Israeli activities in Israel than there is in the United States, especially under Democratic administrations. I don’t believe that every Israeli is a thug. There are a lot of decent Israelis, unfortunately, under the strain of the continuing conflict, their percentage seems to be declining.

Again, I will be in your debt for any corrections or clarifications.

[DubiousDan]

You have to keep in mind that as far as most Israelis are concerned, the palestinian situation is so bleak anyway, there's so little to talk about or anyone to talk to, that it might as well be a non-issue. Anyone can promise peace, but its been a vacant promise for decades now. Why not concentrate on more important things to us, like education and religious freedom and immigration and a thousand other things that actually matter to the daily lives of all Israelis?

As a side note, you seem like a person that can actually hold a discussion honestly, which I appreciate.

Actually I disagree on the Palestinian situation. Yes, I can see that it has become exceedingly frustrating to the average Israeli. However, I believe that the survival of Israel depends on resolving it. My personal recommendation to the Palestinians is to get the Hell out. The only viable path for them is the Diaspora. I would recommend at least a 100 km distance from Israel at the bare minimum.

Frankly, I can’t see how Israel can survive under the current conditions. The hatred surrounding her only grows, and with the proliferation of thermonuclear weapons, it is only a matter of time. Israel is a very small country. She is open to the ocean and to enemy territory on all sides. I don’t consider this as something desirable. It would be a cataclysmic tragedy, but the only way that I see to avoid it is to defuse the hatred.
I feel that that is doable, but not likely.
It would be ironic indeed if the two peoples that could not live together would die together.

As to your side note, I try to be, but irrational a-holes tend to trigger a process that converts me into a sadistic a-hole. I doubt very much if that is a concern for you.