[marjy]

Why is the question constantly "What can Europe do for the UK?" Why isn't the question that the British ask, "What can the UK do for Europe?"

It's easy to always ask for advantages. It is harder to offer help.

Please, don't give me the solidarity line.

Every country, without exception, is out for itself.

Why not ask the same questions of France?

Try changing the C.A.P. and see the response you get from them.

[marjy]

marjy - How has there been lack of "fair play" towards the UK?

You misinterpret me. I am not complaining about a lack of fair play towards the UK.

I meant lack of "fair play" as meaning not abiding to agreed rules - such as adherence to the Stability and Growth pact.

The UK gets most of what it wants: opt out of Schengen, opt out of the euro, opt out of justice and home affairs, opt out of of the emerging eurozone structures, veto of the banking union, special rebate on the budget. Where has the UK been mistreated exactly?

All the UK opt outs you mention were negotiated and mutually agreed; negotiation and compromise are the very basis of how the EU operates. There are other member states with similar opt outs.

Are you suggesting that negotiation and compromise should no longer have a place in how the EU operates or is it simply the way you think it might be going anyway?

As to Germany: The question is not at all one of "foreign influence." The Germans clearly far more influential in the EU today than any other country so it would be hard for the EU to feel like "foreign" interference.

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted your previous post in which you wrote:

However, I am quite certain on the eurozone that Germany will ever tolerate potentially having its monetary and fiscal policy determined by foreigners, potentially by a majority of Latins and Greeks.

I took that to mean you thought Germany would not tolerate having its monetary & fiscal policy determined by foreigners.

The issue for Germany will simply be money: How much "German money" will be required to save the eurozone?

Again, do you think this is fair?

In exchange, they are designing all the new eurozone rules, which will be valid eternally (für ewig) and only modifiable with German agreement (Fiskalpakt, Banking Union), just as they old eurozone rules of Maastricht ("independent" central bank, inflation-targeting is only objective, no debt financing).

I think the Maastricht Treaty might be a rather unfortunate example to quote in the context of any discussion about 'fair play'. It was Germany (who effectively forced its partners to sign up to the pact) and then France who first broke the rules that effectively did away with the Stability and Growth Pact. Both Germany and France were determined not to submit to sanctions and managed to secure a majority in the EU's Council of Economic and Finance Ministers to cancel the European Commission's sanction procedure. It was a serious breach of the rules and the consequences are now all too apparent.

I'm sure the new eurozone rules will be intended für ewig - but will adherence to them? Without wishing to appear too cynical, haven't we been here before? And nothing, but nothing, is 'for ever', least of all in politics.

There will be more solidarity required however, particularly in Spain it will be massive, and it's not clear if the Bundesbank or her right-wing FDP allies can accept the scale of aid required.

More solidarity? Don't you simply mean more money? A lot of EU jargon has a distinctly Orwellian "1984" ring to it at times.

The 'official' EU explanation for the breach of the Stability and Growth Pact for might have been written by Orwell's Ministry of Truth itself which, if memory serves, was responsible for propaganda and historical revisionism.

[Ombrageux]

I took that to mean you thought Germany would not tolerate having its monetary & fiscal policy determined by foreigners.

Ah, indeed that's what I meant. And Germany has succeeded in this. It is making permanent rules to ensure that democratic majorities, both in national parliaments and in the European Parliament, have no say whatsoever in the determination of monetary and fiscal policy. Instead, both will be preset by rules that Germany has defined. This will ensure that even a federalized Europe will follow German virtue. There is no serious threat today that democracy will undermine Germany's domination of the eurozone.

On the need for German money: I don't know if it is fair, but solidarity is necessary to the existence of monetary union. To the extent that Germany desires the existence of the euro, solidarity is necessary. Obviously the emotional solidarity between Germany and Greece is infinitely inferior to that between two American states, as such, the euro is grossly economically inferior to the monetary system that preceded it or to the U.S. system.

That the rules will not be followed to the letter is not the point. The rules are so inflexible and so economically stupid - they are literally indefensible from an economic point of view - that no one can in good faith seriously defend them. They must be violated in a crisis and have been. But the law will remain. This means two things: 1) "Normal" policy will be outside of democratic control, but preset according to German rules. 2) "Crisis" policy will be determined by the ECB and the most powerful states (today Germany) against the law, arbitrarily according to the balance of power, not democratic norms. In any case, a reinforcement of the eurozone will necessarily mean: EITHER a loss of democracy OR a loss of the rule of law.

Solidarity means debt guarantees, ECB buying of debt, and some fiscal transfers. E.g., it is the usual stuff that exists between U.S. states, British counties or Japanese prefectures, and indeed the normal behavior of the U.S., Japanese and British central banks and governments.

[Baff]

I'm quite happy with the existing structures we have in place to deal with this.
The IMF for example.

The EU is just replicating what already exists.

It's a part of the problem I have with EU membership.
I don't need 2 governments. 2 IMFs. 2 foriegn policies, 2 foriegn ministries etc etc etc.

I would be more happy if we were to scrap either our Brussels govt or our Westminster govt than I would be to continue with both.
That is the worst of all possible outcomes in my eyes.

Failure to reinforce EU rulership will not result in a loss of law an order.
What a load of bollocks.
We had law and order before we signed up to the the EU. Everybody did.
Just not the EU laws.

A very large number of EU laws are actually pretty good. Laws that I am in complete agreement with my government signing up to.
Equally a very large number are totally shit.

The problem with a loss of democracy is that this is the way in which we will lose law and order.
If we take Greece as our example, we can clearly see that the loss of democracy has not resulted in improved Law and Order. It has resulted in the exact opposite. A complete loss of law and order.

So there are not the choices you offer at all.
The choices are this, continue with the EU federalisation and accept the resulting loss of democracy and law and order as a price worth paying in return for a membership in a new country, or leave and go back to what we had before.

As for German rules, this can never be. History happened.
Despite all the great altruism the German people show in their dealings with EU, they are still tarred by the events of last century.
Even if they were the best of us. The smartest and most powerful... This can never be. It's tantamount to a declaration of war.

[Euroman]

Please, don't give me the solidarity line.

Every country, without exception, is out for itself.

Why not ask the same questions of France?

Try changing the C.A.P. and see the response you get from them.

But I am not giving you that line. You are programmed to assume that I am.


You are darn right that nations will look out for themselves first and foremost. That's why Britain (selfishly?) sought several opt out clauses in European matters, such as the Euro. The UK was not willing to take the risk and join the rest of the Europeans. Now the UK wants MOAR!! without any extra risk? If anything, you are right. The UK is looking after its own interests. That's why I said earlier to you, why does the UK deserve MOAR!!?


Sure, Germany may or may not be leading the EU. However, Germany has taken a great deal of risk. Any EU or Eurozone failure would likely be blamed on the Germans. Heck, Brits are already running around screaming "NAZI FOURTH REICH". The question is, why don't the Brits try to lead? Why don't they take all the risks? Why don't they step up their game and show some leadership? It's easy to be in the back seat moaning about the driver's skills, however, do you have the guts or skills to drive?


Britain just wants risk free handouts... like Greece.

[Decky]

The question is, why don't the Brits try to lead? Why don't they take all the risks?

We have to desire to oppress Europe, why would we be running it? That is the Job of the German government.

[Bandersnatch]

What UK referendum? There's not going to *be* a UK referendum. The Scots will get a referendum on independence, but only UKIP want a referendum on leaving the EU, and it would be completely mental. And UKIP are only polling 5% of the vote on YouGov surveys anyway. And it would be properly, properly mad to leave the EU if we lost Scotland, because we'd be so so small.

[Euroman]

We have to desire to oppress Europe, why would we be running it? That is the Job of the German government.

Oppress? Trying to impress now? You had a hard time suppressing, let alone oppressing, the Irish. The chances of the current UK oppressing anyone in Europe could be best described as "pigs flying in hell with wings made from ice". The point I am trying to make is, you sound very jealous. I think deep within the British can't stand the successful German model.


What I am saying to you is, show up Germany's model with your "own". Stop running around with your tail between your legs and show us why Germany's model is flawed. As an FYI, the UK will be nothing in the modern world. By 2050 it is projected that all Europeans combined will make up 4% of the global population, which is pretty much nothing. In other words, there will be so many people in the world that Germany's model applied to all of Europe could in fact keep Europe relevant. Perhaps we could even become and stay independent. We would not need to cannibalise profits from each other, as the world pie is big enough for everything to go around. Again, if you British had any balls to speak of, you would try to lead with your model. The question is, why can't your government convince us to?

[Thompson_NCL]

You are darn right that nations will look out for themselves first and foremost. That's why Britain (selfishly?) sought several opt out clauses in European matters, such as the Euro. The UK was not willing to take the risk and join the rest of the Europeans. Now the UK wants MOAR!! without any extra risk? If anything, you are right. The UK is looking after its own interests. That's why I said earlier to you, why does the UK deserve MOAR!!?

In what sense do we want more? Our Government is pressing for LESS Europe interference in our domestic affairs, no MORE

[Euroman]

Talk to your government about UK's EU membership. I don't care and am sick of hearing about it for the last 10 years. It's pathetic.

[Thompson_NCL]

Talk to your government about UK's EU membership. I don't care and am sick of hearing about it for the last 10 years. It's pathetic.

We'll make our decision in our own time. It would be better you stop taking an interest in our internal affairs.

[Euroman]

That is the best reply you could muster? After 10 years of whining all you can say is, "We shall run away from home when we feel like it." Face it people, the UK ain't going anywhere. They just want free hand outs for no work.

[Thompson_NCL]

Free hand outs? We're a net contributor with the second lowest return on investment in the EU (Netherlands is top). Who the fuck are you trying to kid by saying we want free handouts?!

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... pean-union

[Euroman]

Typical whiny misinterpretation of the data.


From your own data:

Germany, as the biggest economy, is also the biggest contributor, Poland is the biggest receiver. The UK contributes much more than it receives too, about €4.7bn more. Why the gap? The UK is a rich country and the EU points out that although it spends less in the UK than the national contribution, the British economy gains much more from access to European markets and contracts. UK exports to the EU were worth nearly €12bn in September alone.

So, let me guess. When the whiners in the UK, the "freedom fighters", cry for freedom, they mean they want to stay in the single market, but not contribute anything. Hence, the "free handouts" that I am pointing out to the UK crowd that has been screaming about running away for the last 10 years. As for the generous UK argument, Cyprus, Ireland, France and Spain contribute more per person than the average British. No sympathy for you. Go take your UK out of the EU and stop whining. 10 years of constantly whining and annoying the rest of us is not enough for you? We don't care! We don't want to hear about the UK. Your whining is legendary, we get it, you are oppressed and yet too lazy and comfortable to leave.

[Thompson_NCL]

So, let me guess. When the whiners in the UK, the "freedom fighters", cry for freedom, they mean they want to stay in the single market, but not contribute anything. Hence, the "free handouts" that I am pointing out to the UK crowd that has been screaming about running away for the last 10 years. As for the generous UK argument, Cyprus, Ireland, France and Spain contribute more per person than the average British. No sympathy for you. Go take your UK out of the EU and stop whining. 10 years of constantly whining and annoying the rest of us is not enough for you? We don't care! We don't want to hear about the UK. Your whining is legendary, we get it, you are oppressed and yet too lazy and comfortable to leave.

The data is not misrepresented at all, nor does your argument counter the facts. You are typically full of vitriol but very little substance, Euroman.

* I have never stated that the UK is the largest total contributor or the larger per capita contributor. Neither of those facts diminishes my own argument however, since a larger total or per capita contribution is moot if you're receiving a larger total or per capita amount back.

* If it was not for the rebate we negotiated, the UK would have been the largest net contributor full stop. Bigger even than Germany. You cannot possibly imagine that is fair can you?

* You have highlighted UK exports, but totally ignored EU imports. We buy far more from European nations than they buy from us. It's more in YOUR interest than ours that we stay in the EU in purely economic terms. In fact our EU trade has diminished the last few years due to the economic woes in the Eurozone.

* Do you honestly imagine we'd lose access to your markets if we left the EU? Not even the anti-UK lobby in Brussels is making that argument, because of the above point.

* Trade has nothing to do with handouts. You buy our goods and services because they are better, cheaper, or exclusive to us. That is no charity on Europes part.

* What the hell does CAP payments have to do with single market? Nothing. CAP is still one of the biggest parts of the EU budget and serves no purpose for the UK. In fact it hurts our economy far more than it benefits it.

* As usual you present the UK has having only a single voice on this issue, but as I've pointed out previously there are various views in the UK just as there are various issues in all nations. You're as usual trying to scapegoat the UK because it's easier than acknowledging the flaws in the system.

* I would have voted against EU membership in the rumoured 2018 referendum, but I now plan to vote that we stay in if only to be a thorn in your side.

* You also seem to ignore some of the big issues that when push came to shove, it was the French and Dutch voters who opposed the EU constitution. The British didn't even get as far as a vote! Why are you not attacking France and the Netherlands?

* Oh and let us add into the pot support for the EU is lower in Czech Republic and Greece (to name two off the top of my head). You love to portray this as a black and white issue with the Brits against the whole of the EU, but that is really not the case at all.

[Political Interest]

The UK can learn a lot from these so called 'continentals' Those who have been to both Germany and the UK say that Germany is a far better place to live. Switzerland is also another country with a high standard of living. My image of Germany is that it is a civilised country where everything is modern and the people live well. Britain has many problems, to deny them is to be blind. Yet there exists a strange sentiment in the UK which is completely xenophobic towards anyone from continental Europe. Before I came to the UK it was always a feeling for me that the British were something like the Germans and French, but then I encountered strange Euro-phobic attitudes and a desire to imitate US cultural trends, values and society. To me it is ridiculous to feel hostility to one's neighbors if there are no contemporary disputes. The EU is a political and economic body, opposition to it is fine. What is absurd is this opposition to Europe regardless of whether it is in the framework of the EU or not. If the reason for this hostility is because Britain has had war with "the Europeans" then this is also silly. Most European countries have had conflict with each other, however they still interact. Many Europeans speak more than one language as well.

Sadly the UK seems to be isolated from the rest of Europe. In my view it is because the UK is an island and the people do not speak the languages of the continent. This means they are isolated from the cultures of these peoples. In contrast the continental Europeans often speak more than one language and can have access to the cultures of their neighbors. Furthermore they border each other directly so this means there is a feeling of being linked, ideas and people can flow across freely. For the British their only influence is the huge cultural pull of the United States popular culture. This is reinforced by a feeling of Anglo brotherhood with the States, which is not very solid because Americans are ironically often of other European origins just with a common English language and Anglo based culture. The degenerate popular cultures of the US and Britain both influence each other and there is no outer civilised influence from the continent to help rescue the Brits. A case in point is the quality of continental European cinema. Many films from the continent are of a high quality. Because the British do not speak French or German widely they cannot access these materials and will not have so much interest in them with subtitles. They are then left with the most low quality American block busters. The result is that the cultural development of the UK falls to a low level and they are unable to culturally interact with anyone outside the Anglosphere. Furthermore it leads to memories of the only interaction with other Europeans being the Second World War or other massive events. The idea that "the Europeans" are a foreign, culturally alien and hostile group of peoples then creates xenophobia and isolationism.

In a word the problem of relations between Britain and the continent is due to the cultural isolation of the former. If more Brits learnt to speak continental European languages and more continental media was shown on television then no doubt this problem could be solved.

[Thompson_NCL]

The UK can learn a lot from these so called 'continentals' Those who have been to both Germany and the UK say that Germany is a far better place to live. Switzerland is also another country with a high standard of living. My image of Germany is that it is a civilised country where everything is modern and the people live well. Britain has many problems, to deny them is to be blind.

Your image of Germany is not evidence of anything, and perhaps reflective of your own Anglophobia. There were Germans on this very forum complaining about how hard things are in Germany just the other month and how Britons have much more disposable income per annum The truth is, it's all relative.

Yet there exists a strange sentiment in the UK which is completely xenophobic towards anyone from continental Europe. Before I came to the UK it was always a feeling for me that the British were something like the Germans and French, but then I encountered strange Euro-phobic attitudes and a desire to imitate US cultural trends, values and society. To me it is ridiculous to feel hostility to one's neighbors if there are no contemporary disputes. The EU is a political and economic body, opposition to it is fine. What is absurd is this opposition to Europe regardless of whether it is in the framework of the EU or not. If the reason for this hostility is because Britain has had war with "the Europeans" then this is also silly. Most European countries have had conflict with each other, however they still interact. Many Europeans speak more than one language as well.

Firstly one must understand that a lot of what outsiders perceive as xenophobia is very much a product of our humour. We of course mock our continental cousins and they us, but that sort of stuff is no real barrier to our interests: Millions of Britains visit Europe every year, we eat European cuisine, buy their goods and so forth. In that sense we are very European and they can rely on us to come to their aid if they really need us because we share a cultural bond.

Britain is however not a European nation in the political sense and we have always (rightly) viewed the continent as a threat to our sovereignty. This has bred a very strong reaction amongst many Britons to what we consider an encroachment on our independence by Brussels and the EU. If the EU issue goes away, we will probably see a return to traditional relations.

In fact are you aware that in a recent BBC survey the majority of Britons expressed positive views of France and Germany? Kind of weakens your argument, no?

Sadly the UK seems to be isolated from the rest of Europe. In my view it is because the UK is an island and the people do not speak the languages of the continent. This means they are isolated from the cultures of these peoples. In contrast the continental Europeans often speak more than one language and can have access to the cultures of their neighbors. Furthermore they border each other directly so this means there is a feeling of being linked, ideas and people can flow across freely. For the British their only influence is the huge cultural pull of the United States popular culture. This is reinforced by a feeling of Anglo brotherhood with the States, which is not very solid because Americans are ironically often of other European origins just with a common English language and Anglo based culture. The degenerate popular cultures of the US and Britain both influence each other and there is no outer civilised influence from the continent to help rescue the Brits. A case in point is the quality of continental European cinema. Many films from the continent are of a high quality. Because the British do not speak French or German widely they cannot access these materials and will not have so much interest in them with subtitles. They are then left with the most low quality American block busters. The result is that the cultural development of the UK falls to a low level and they are unable to culturally interact with anyone outside the Anglosphere. Furthermore it leads to memories of the only interaction with other Europeans being the Second World War or other massive events. The idea that "the Europeans" are a foreign, culturally alien and hostile group of peoples then creates xenophobia and isolationism.

This is mostly all nonsense. British students learn French, German and Spanish in school, the reason that many of us do not retain the language into adulthood is that we have no need to do so. But did you know that there are MORE French speakers in the UK than in Germany? That seems to undermine your argument a fair bit. Not to mention we have a similar number of German speakers as the French.

[Political Interest]

Your image of Germany is not evidence of anything, and perhaps reflective of your own Anglophobia. There were Germans on this very forum complaining about how hard things are in Germany just the other month and how Britons have much more disposable income per annum The truth is, it's all relative.

Criticising the UK is not Anglophobia and I am not anti-British. There is a difference between offering constructive criticism and being actively against the British.

There may have been Germans telling us that life in Germany is very difficult however I have also heard from others that life there is very good. Yes, it is relative so who do we believe?

Firstly one must understand that a lot of what outsiders perceive as xenophobia is very much a product of our humour. We of course mock our continental cousins and they us, but that sort of stuff is no real barrier to our interests: Millions of Britains visit Europe every year, we eat European cuisine, buy their goods and so forth. In that sense we are very European and they can rely on us to come to their aid if they really need us because we share a cultural bond.

At least this assuring. However you cannot deny there is an element in the UK who would like to see all ties to Europe cut completely. They would be happy if the only interaction between Britain and the continent were trade with no cultural or political ties.

Britain is however not a European nation in the political sense and we have always (rightly) viewed the continent as a threat to our sovereignty. This has bred a very strong reaction amongst many Britons to what we consider an encroachment on our independence by Brussels and the EU. If the EU issue goes away, we will probably see a return to traditional relations.

In what way is the continent a threat to British independence? The continental countries also fought each other and instead of being separated from each other by a channel they share direct land borders. Why do they then not view each other as a threat to their own independence? So you will write off a whole region just because of history?

In fact are you aware that in a recent BBC survey the majority of Britons expressed positive views of France and Germany? Kind of weakens your argument, no?

I never knew it.

This is mostly all nonsense. British students learn French, German and Spanish in school, the reason that many of us do not retain the language into adulthood is that we have no need to do so. But did you know that there are MORE French speakers in the UK than in Germany? That seems to undermine your argument a fair bit. Not to mention we have a similar number of German speakers as the French.

In this case why is it possible to go to Holland and Belgium and then hear them speak English but then in England the average person on the street cannot speak French or German?

[Thompson_NCL]

In this case why is it possible to go to Holland and Belgium and then hear them speak English but then in England the average person on the street cannot speak French or German?

You can ask any European the answer to that: They need to speak English to get ahead in life. In many careers it's a basic requirement that you speak English fluently and even some Universities are now only teaching in English. It's not a question of them CHOOSING to learn English, they MUST learn English.

I was of course learning French when I was in school, we went to France to practice our language skills. When I got there I found everyone was either able to speak English or at least understood me. I saw no value in learning French from that point on. If the French who are the most chauvinist when it comes to their language speak English, then there is no sense me worrying about foreign languages.

I'll respond to the rest later when I have more time.

[Decky]

At least this assuring. However you cannot deny there is an element in the UK who would like to see all ties to Europe cut completely. They would be happy if the only interaction between Britain and the continent were trade with no cultural or political ties.

There are already no cultural ties to Europe, it is only the political ties that need to be cut. Why worry about something that does not exist?