[Baff]

Prior to being part of the common market, and indeed still with those others countries with whom we trade daily, this is the method that we used/use.

If you buy as many goods from as as you sell to us there is no tarif.
If the amount of goods you sell to us becomes greater than what you buy, at this point a tariff is enabled by us, or if we sell to you more than we buy from you a tarif is enabled on our goods by you.

When it is advantageous to enter into a free trade agreement, is when you feel you are going to sell more goods to someone than you are intending to buy.

[Andalublue]

When Britain finally votes on EU membership, can we add a question about our continued membership of NATO too? I don't recall the British people ever being given the chance to have a say on that either.

[Thompson_NCL]

When Britain finally votes on EU membership, can we add a question about our continued membership of NATO too? I don't recall the British people ever being given the chance to have a say on that either.

NATO is not a popular issue, why waste time counting votes on something people don't care greatly about?

[Andalublue]

NATO is not a popular issue, why waste time counting votes on something people don't care greatly about?

Oh, sorry, I thought it was about democracy. That seems to be the number one issue that the Eurosceptics give us for demanding a referendum. "We've never been given a democratic choice whether we want to be members!" Nor have we been given that choice for being members of NATO, the UN, or the Commonwealth.

If it's just about popularity, then why aren't we debating voter fraud in the X Factor?

[Thompson_NCL]

In the UK referendums tend to be reserved for major constitutional issues or changes in the way are governed.

Membership of NATO has no relation to either of those and is thus not subject to a referendum. Nor for that matter is membership of the UN which has very little impact on domestic issues or the way in which our country is run. Membership of the EU and the surrender of national sovereignty to Brussels however is a very different kettle of fish.

If NATO was a major issue for people, I think it would be worthwhile having a referendum on the irrespective of our traditional approach to holding them. But as it's not, I don't think it is.

[Baff]

When Britain finally votes on EU membership, can we add a question about our continued membership of NATO too? I don't recall the British people ever being given the chance to have a say on that either.

How about you just assume we majoritively consent? Pretended to yourself that we all voted and that the answer was "stay in NATO and the UN".

It would save a hell of a lot of time and money to get to the same end result.

I don't mind us having one of course, but I'm not so intrested in it myself. I doubt I'd bother to vote myself.
I don't think our government has been actively conspiring to make us UN and NATO members in the direct face of our political will. I don't think it's such a flagrant misuse of power. But I accept that no matter how democratic no government is ever going to have the consent of every person it rules over.

Fundamentaslly I'm happy for us to hold referendums on any policy that gets proposed in parliament. I see no reason at all why we need someone to represent our votes in this day and age. We are a long way past the days of horse and cart now.

[Andalublue]

I'm fundamentally against referenda. It's new development in British political practice; the first took place in 1973. Parliament is sovereign and is not mandated to accept the result. The Scottish devolution referendum in 1979 voted 'yes' but the government refused to accept the result. I think they are inimical to the British representative democratic tradition. It strikes me as a way for governments to avoid having to make difficult decisions based on the best interests of the nation. They are easily manipulated by populist politicians and media. The politicians should do their job and act as the representatives of the will and the well-being of their constituents.

[Thompson_NCL]

I'm fundamentally against referenda. It's new development in British political practice; the first took place in 1973. Parliament is sovereign and is not mandated to accept the result. The Scottish devolution referendum in 1979 voted 'yes' but the government refused to accept the result. I think they are inimical to the British representative democratic tradition. It strikes me as a way for governments to avoid having to make difficult decisions based on the best interests of the nation. They are easily manipulated by populist politicians and media. The politicians should do their job and act as the representatives of the will and the well-being of their constituents.

In the ideal world they would, but they are clearly not representing the will of the electorate on the issue of Europe. Various polls have shown that over 50% of Britons would leave the EU, but only the backbench of the Conservatives seem to be pushing that agenda. That is not representatives.

[Andalublue]

Well, over 70% of the British people were against our participation in the Iraq war. Should we have had a referendum on that too?

[Thompson_NCL]

Well, over 70% of the British people were against our participation in the Iraq war. Should we have had a referendum on that too?

Not a constitutional issue, so in my view and the seemingly unwritten rules, no we should not.

[Andalublue]

There is no rule, written or otherwise, that referenda can only be used for constitutional issues. Unless you know otherwise and can point us to it.

[Thompson_NCL]

There is no rule, written or otherwise, that referenda can only be used for constitutional issues. Unless you know otherwise and can point us to it.

It's unwritten, so of course I cannot point you to it. But look at what referendums have been held on within the UK:

Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum, 1973, on whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom or join the Republic of Ireland (UK)
United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum, 1975, on whether the UK should remain part of the European Economic Community (yes)
Scottish devolution referendum, 1979, on whether there should be a Scottish Assembly (small majority voted yes, but fell short of the 40% threshold required to enact devolution)
Welsh devolution referendum, 1979, on whether there should be a Welsh Assembly (no)
Scottish devolution referendum, 1997, Two questions: On whether there should be a Scottish Parliament (yes); On whether a Scottish Parliament should have tax varying powers (yes)
Welsh devolution referendum, 1997, on whether there should be a National Assembly for Wales (yes)
Greater London Authority referendum, 1998, on whether there should be a Mayor of London and Greater London Authority (yes)
Northern Ireland Belfast Agreement referendum, 1998, on the Good Friday Agreement (yes)
North East England devolution referendum, 2004, on an elected regional assembly (no)
Welsh devolution referendum, 2011 (yes)
United Kingdom Alternative Vote referendum, 2011, 5 May 2011. (no)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum ... ed_Kingdom

[Baff]

If the choice is "referendum or civil war" I think a referendum is fine.

The politicians should do their job and act as the representatives of the will and the well-being of their constituents.

But since they have consistently, repeatedly and insitutionally failed to do this to the satisfaction of their constitutents and for so long, they can simply no longer be entrusted with the decision over the EU.

They do not have the democratic mandate to rule over us on this matter.
And that is why a referendum is needed. Because they have sucked so badly and failed to represent their constituents for so long that they are no longer trusted with this respondsability.
A referendum is required to democratically legitimse and mandate any government to act on our behalfs in the EU.
All of them got elected multiple times on the promise of an EU referendum. The empty promise of a referendum. The decision is no longer theirs to take.

Otherwise, they don't speak for the country, just as individual private citsens.

[Andalublue]

But since they have consistently, repeatedly and insitutionally failed to do this to the satisfaction of their constitutents and for so long, they can simply no longer be entrusted with the decision over the EU.

They do not have the democratic mandate to rule over us on this matter.

At every general election since the UK joined the EEC, EC and EU the British voter has had the option to vote for an anti-European party, first by voting Tory in the Seventies and Eighties, and later, when the Tories tore themselves apart over the issue (1992-1997) they had UKIP, all committed to either renegotiating or withdrawing from the EU. The arch enemy of the EU, Margaret Thatcher failed to give the antis their referendum and failed to take Britain out of the EU. Since those days Tory, Labour and Lib Dem governments have been elected committed to maintaining Britain within the EU.

Were this issue the key, fundamental and crucial issue to British voters they would have voted for the parties that promised and committed themselves to EU withdrawal. They have not. They have given the democratic mandate to whomsoever they wished, and they clearly did not wish to be ruled by a party committed to withdrawal. There is absolutely no constitutional reason why this issue should be submitted to a referendum. If the British people want one, then they can vote UKIP into office in 2015 (or sooner), although I suspect that should they do so, they still won't get it; what they'll get is withdrawal without referendum, which would be UKIP's right to do as the elected government.

[Thompson_NCL]

The EU was not a bad project when it began, it wasn't really until the Lisbon Treaty etc that people started to become aware of where things were going. UKIP have grown to 15% and there is apparently as many as 54% who'd vote to get out of the EU now. So people ARE using the democratic process and we might see at the next election a big swing to UKIP. Or not.

[Euroman]

There are already no cultural ties to Europe, it is only the political ties that need to be cut. Why worry about something that does not exist? :?:

Forgive my lacklustre reply. I spent several days vomiting after reading the last few British replies.


Can someone tell me where the English language came from? India? China? America?


I am vomiting as I am typing this... This is disgusting. Isn't there a single British on this forum who will correct the above nonsense? OK, here let me do it with a cartoon in a format easily understandable to anyone who didn't complete any sort of schooling.


[youtube]H3r9bOkYW9s[/youtube]


As for Thompson's long and boring reply... I don't care. Germany's politicians are increasingly getting bored and annoyed of you British. Just leave or stop crying about it. We don't care! Just go!

* I would have voted against EU membership in the rumoured 2018 referendum, but I now plan to vote that we stay in if only to be a thorn in your side.

So childish. That's what I mean. The Brits are a bunch of children who want attention. Can you British just take your Britain and bug off? We don't care!! See any one here objection to you British leaving? Go! Shu shu! Go, go!

[Travesty]

No need for Britain to leave the EU. Let their economy suffer a bit longer, let their people go unemployed for a little while and loose their jobs to those from Eastern Europe. Keep the kettle boiling until it pops its always more interesting that way.

[Euroman]

No need for Britain to leave the EU. Let their economy suffer a bit longer, let their people go unemployed for a little while and loose their jobs to those from Eastern Europe. Keep the kettle boiling until it pops its always more interesting that way.

So the response to our collective European, "We don't care about the infantile British threats of running away!", is to issue a whole new threat? The threat being, "We will mess up our room and bang our heads on the walls if you don't start to care and worry about us!"


To which I say, go burn down your country. We don't care! Just go and do it all ready you endless boring lot.


[youtube]tyQxqLy2R_M[/youtube]

[Baff]

At every general election since the UK joined the EEC, EC and EU the British voter has had the option to vote for an anti-European party,....

And in all of the last three elections every single major party stood on the promise of an EU referendum. It's been this way since joining the EU was originally proposed. No democratic mandate has ever been offered the British Government to speak for it's citisens on this subject.
The major political parties will all continue to stand on the promise of an EU referendum at the next election too. Not to do so in this country is electoral suicide.
The British voter has voted almost exclusively for an EU referendum repeated times. Even before we joined the EU.
The new act which allows public petition to force government debate on issues has also been enacted for the same purpose. It was the very first thing the citisens used it for and is consistently the most popular issue raised on it by the public.


Having the "option" to vote for something, counts for very little when that vote is consistently ignored.

Our government does not represent it's people in this regard. It speaks for itself only.

[Baff]

Can someone tell me where the English language came from? India? China? America?

It came from England.
It includes words from India, China, the US and many other cultures besides.

No need for Britain to leave the EU. Let their economy suffer a bit longer, let their people go unemployed for a little while and loose their jobs to those from Eastern Europe. Keep the kettle boiling until it pops its always more interesting that way.

We have lost about 3 million domestic jobs to Eastern Europeans since joining the EU.

I fail to so see what exactly it is you think we could be doing worse in this regard.

By the end of next year we are expecting to lose another .5 million jobs domestically to Eastern Europeans (Bulgarians and Romanians) unless..... we have left the EU by next December.

What you have hit on is a very big concern felt by very many people here about being an EU member.