[Thunderhawk]

Have The Ukrainians used runway destruction ordinance on the Airport runways?

[Typhoon]

Not as far as I am aware but with being too close to the front lines it would be very risky to use.

[Far-Right Sage]

What's going on now at Donetsk airport after it's been reported Novorossiyan resistance forces have stormed the complex? It's tricky to recover any other credible information.

There has always been respect; you know that ideologically we aren't so far apart, I think it is a matter of strategy and tactics in which we differ more so.

This is also what I long have been conveying to Reiko regarding my stance on Russia and Russia's defense of its national sovereignty as opposed to her position.

I cannot agree with that. 'Russia' is dying, in the final stages of Imperial collapse, and nothing can change that, because Moscovy isn't and never was the whole and heart of Russia, the real Russia. However, with the Ukraine as the beginning and final end of 'Holy Rus' once more, something can survive from the wreckage.

This is too vague. What do you mean precisely by this? No one could legitimately claim that the Moscow region is, could be, or should be representative of all Russia, the world's largest country. The modern states of Ukraine and Russia can both be considered successor states of Kievan Rus'. Russians and the majority of Ukrainians living on contemporary Ukrainian territory (territory that used to be controlled by a political authority in Moscow) have a commonality of ethnic inter-mixing, very closely related languages, a shared religious denomination, many cultural rites and practices which don't recognize any Russian-Ukrainian border, and a shared history of existing as part of the same state, whether Kievan Rus', the Russian Empire, or the Soviet Union.

Many many Russians and many Ukrainians as well, particularly the eastern Ukrainians/Novorossiyans, feel very plainly and strongly that they should share unity of geopolitical purpose under the same political entity today, and many ethnic Russians in the former east of Ukraine are rebelling for this reason, not because they hate any notion of Ukrainian identity in the abstract or because they hate the Ukrainian language or culture. They are rebelling because they will not stand with a government in Kiev that wants to divide East Slavs while doing the bidding of foreign masters who openly declare an intention to use such a strategy to put Russia and the East Slavic world on its knees, rather than a government in Moscow which understands the danger and wants to achieve the opposite, uniting Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine as a common bloc with its near abroad to stand independent in world affairs.

Think of the Russians attempting to put a high-tech computer into operation to have a fighting chance against the cut-throat competition, the regime in Kiev that was installed in February being a computer virus intended to crash and short-circuit the system deliberately implanted by its enemies, and Vladimir Putin filling the role of a skilled technician in a white lab coat.

In the Middle East, you and I find ourselves 'allied' with people, or more fittingly, we happen to have the same enemy as them; ISIS. The situation is the same with Nationalists in the Ukraine versus Russia. I assure you, the revolution isn't over, and the wealthy in Ukraine will have to start becoming more patriotic, or they'll find themselves in difficulties somewhere down the road.

Why? It isn't Ukrainian nationalists and fascists who hold the power in Kiev, but oligarchs certainly no better than before the coup, and what's worse, blatant traitors of the Ukrainian people and IMF representatives like Arseniy Yatsenyuk, billionaires with dual Israeli citizenship hand-picked by the new liberal-sanctioned oligarchy, and direct appointees of the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland.

These aren't Ukrainian patriots of course but foreign employees, and they will put down with force risings against them from the right like the fascists who foolishly betrayed their own history by selling out to neoliberals, as they did with Right Sector's Oleksandr Muzychko in Rivne in western Ukraine.

Not necessarily always a bad thing; Assad or Ghaddaffi could tell you that.

Sure, and I have no problem with such tactics, but with the type of comment you quoted I am specifically addressing liberal contributors here who claim to oppose and be aghast at all that yet have very selective targeted outrage which, surprise surprise and coincidentally enough, tends to advance the talking points of the liberal-capitalist international agenda.

Right now, if Ukraine is to be independent, nationalists have to work with liberals and oligarchs and vice versa. As I don't believe in 'democracy' as such, but a Republic, I myself have no problem with some of these measures. The Western Elites need the Nationalists in Ukraine for now, once they no longer need them, they will not be in a position to do anything about Ukrainian patriots.

I acknowledge and applaud the honesty in the first part of your statement, so as I said my efforts to point out these tactics in the middle of the country's capital in broad daylight wouldn't be designed to ridicule you for it, but certainly there are plenty of intellectually dishonest left-liberal types here who cheered on the Euromaidan color revolution and acted and still act while putting on a ridiculous front that it would somehow be an improvement on areas such as corruption and some humanist concept of increasing rights and fair play in the country, or that it was ever even designed to be. It was a brutal coup engineered in the capitals of Russia's global adversaries and it has manifested in a regime which is more brutal than the last by any measure.

As I said about elites not being able to stop nationalists however earlier, I don't believe this is the case. Ultimately the regime is bankrupt and is only even surviving on payouts from its foreign handlers, but were a regime to come into place in western Ukraine which abrogates liberal-cosmopolitanism and the U.S./EU/IMF prescriptions for the country and establishes a state rooted in some romantic Galician interpretation of Ukrainian nationalism, this will probably be even more of a rump Ukraine which loses Odessa and everything south and east easily while having its life support from abroad cut.

[pikachu]

Something that interested me - a comparison between the current frontline in Donbass and the international border of Ukraine and Russia in 1918-1923.



In 1918-1920 it was the border between UPR and RSFSR, when the Bolsheviks finally overran Ukraine in 1920-1921 it became the border between UrSSR and RSFSR.

In 1921-1923 the border was adjusted with RSFRS giving UrSSR territories in Donetsk/Luhansk as well as smaller areas in Kharkiv and Sumy provinces, in exchange UrSSR gave RSFSR Starodub, its northernmost province (currently part of Bryansk province in Russia).

For reference:
http://www.haidamaka.org.ua/obr/sxslob/mapaunr.jpg
http://www.royaltombs.dk/ukraina/ukraina_hist1.gif
http://alternathistory.org.ua/files/260411_taimlain-alternativnogo-ukrainskogo-gosudarstva_map_03.jpg

[annatar1914]

Thank you for the replies, I shall do my best on a weary wednesday evening to address the issues you raise.

This is also what I long have been conveying to Reiko regarding my stance on Russia and Russia's defense of its national sovereignty as opposed to her position.

I'm by no means convinced that this is what 'Russia' is doing, defending their national sovereignty. I don't see Putin and company as Russian Nationalists, many of whom are in jail, btw.

No one could legitimately claim that the Moscow region is, could be, or should be representative of all Russia, the world's largest country.

'Moscow' as you know is the heart of an idea; 'Moscow the Third Rome'. But Moscow having gone imperial and despotic, is culturally and spiritually more akin to the Golden Horde, with a mere change of capitol from Sarai to Moscow-and these are things the Eurasianists like Dugin admit to and are proud of. But you are right; Asiatic Despotism whether under Czars or Commissars or Chekists is not representative of Rus or of Orthodoxy. A real Russia wouldn't be an associate member state of the OIC.

The modern states of Ukraine and Russia can both be considered successor states of Kievan Rus'

The Kremlin doesn't see it that way.

. Russians and the majority of Ukrainians living on contemporary Ukrainian territory (territory that used to be controlled by a political authority in Moscow) have a commonality of ethnic inter-mixing, very closely related languages, a shared religious denomination, many cultural rites and practices which don't recognize any Russian-Ukrainian border, and a shared history of existing as part of the same state, whether Kievan Rus', the Russian Empire, or the Soviet Union.

But as the Empire is collapsing, and Neo-Soviet Eurasianists are busy making White and Orthodox Rus safe for Islam and China, it is well past time for the region which has steadfastly most resisted the Despotic trends-the Ukraine-to be free and in fact, in time help reconquer Europe for Europe, while resisting the latest iteration of the Mongol Yoke.

Many many Russians and many Ukrainians as well, particularly the eastern Ukrainians/Novorossiyans, feel very plainly and strongly that they should share unity of geopolitical purpose under the same political entity today

And from what i've seen, many Ukrainians would agree with 'unity of geopolitical purpose under the same political entity' with some Russians too, except under a Nationalist Kiev instead of a Neo-Soviet/Islam-friendly Moscow.

They are rebelling because they will not stand with a government in Kiev that wants to divide East Slavs while doing the bidding of foreign masters who openly declare an intention to use such a strategy to put Russia and the East Slavic world on its knees

Having begun reading extensively a number of certain Ukrainian Nationalist writers recently, I would say that such is not their intention at all.

, rather than a government in Moscow which understands the danger and wants to achieve the opposite, uniting Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine as a common bloc with its near abroad to stand independent in world affairs.

No, 'Eurasia' is just another piece in the jigsaw puzzle of World Government by the elites, same as the European Union and the similar regional blocs that have been slowly forming these past few decades. This is why things have not spiraled too far out of control in this and other crises vis-a-vis Putin and the 'West'.

Think of the Russians attempting to put a high-tech computer into operation to have a fighting chance against the cut-throat competition, the regime in Kiev that was installed in February being a computer virus intended to crash and short-circuit the system deliberately implanted by its enemies, and Vladimir Putin filling the role of a skilled technician in a white lab coat.

Except the 'virus' in your analogy happens to be Ukrainian Nationalism, and to use another analogy, you can't trick that genie out of the bottle so easily.

Why? It isn't Ukrainian nationalists and fascists who hold the power in Kiev

Yet....

, but oligarchs certainly no better than before the coup, and what's worse, blatant traitors of the Ukrainian people and IMF representatives like Arseniy Yatsenyuk, billionaires with dual Israeli citizenship hand-picked by the new liberal-sanctioned oligarchy, and direct appointees of the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland.

And the patriots are aware of that, certainly.

These aren't Ukrainian patriots of course but foreign employees, and they will put down with force risings against them from the right

What 'force'? The Ukrainian Nationalists are the force, and the rich liberals know it. To not increasingly give in to the Nationalists would be to cut off the sword-arm which defends the country from the very Moscow which they want freedom from, for their own purposes. They made this Marriage, but they need the Nationalists; the Nationalists don't need them. The process of concessions has already begun. Case in point, from INTERFAX-UKRAINE;


18:03 25.09.2014
OUN-UPA veterans could be given combatant status - Poroshenko

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said it is worth considering assigning the status of combatant to veterans of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - Ukrainian Insurgent Army (OUN-UPA).

"This is a very important issue and one that was raised in a very timely manner. Previously, this issue split the country and was not on the agenda... Now is the right time," he told a press conference in Kyiv on Thursday.

The president also added that he sees OUN-UPA fighters as examples of heroism.

like the fascists who foolishly betrayed their own history by selling out to neoliberals, as they did with Right Sector's Oleksandr Muzychko in Rivne in western Ukraine.

I'd say instead that the Neoliberals foolishly overplayed their hand and reminded patriots what the other enemy of Ukraine is.

Sure, and I have no problem with such tactics, but with the type of comment you quoted I am specifically addressing liberal contributors here who claim to oppose and be aghast at all that yet have very selective targeted outrage which, surprise surprise and coincidentally enough, tends to advance the talking points of the liberal-capitalist international agenda.

Little do they (our liberal friends) realize, that sometimes you have to be very careful what you wish for; you may just get it.

I acknowledge and applaud the honesty in the first part of your statement, so as I said my efforts to point out these tactics in the middle of the country's capital in broad daylight wouldn't be designed to ridicule you for it, but certainly there are plenty of intellectually dishonest left-liberal types here who cheered on the Euromaidan color revolution and acted and still act while putting on a ridiculous front that it would somehow be an improvement on areas such as corruption and some humanist concept of increasing rights and fair play in the country, or that it was ever even designed to be. It was a brutal coup engineered in the capitals of Russia's global adversaries and it has manifested in a regime which is more brutal than the last by any measure.

Agreed. Certainly you see Dmitri Yarosh for example as fully the measure of a man like V. V. Putin? Perhaps our 'difference' mirrors theirs, in some respects.... Our friends here have no idea of what i'm speaking of, FRS, but i'm sure you do.

As I said about elites not being able to stop nationalists however earlier, I don't believe this is the case

Well, effete as they are, they convince foreigners who are patriots of their own nation to fight the rebellious others, by appeal to a perceived narrow interest. World Wars One and Two come to mind. But should Cosmopolitanism itself begin to collapse....

. Ultimately the regime is bankrupt and is only even surviving on payouts from its foreign handlers, but were a regime to come into place in western Ukraine which abrogates liberal-cosmopolitanism and the U.S./EU/IMF prescriptions for the country and establishes a state rooted in some romantic Galician interpretation of Ukrainian nationalism, this will probably be even more of a rump Ukraine which loses Odessa and everything south and east easily while having its life support from abroad cut.

This is the 'worst-case' scenario, and it does seem convincing were I to be more sanguine in mood, yet consider that none of this is happening in isolation. Politics makes for strange bedfellows, and I cannot knock the Ukrainian Nationalists for an alliance with the 'Rainbow Coalition' if I look to past historical 'compromising alliances' and the cold realpolitik of Molotov and Ribbentrop and the pact they made in 1938.

[annatar1914]

And then I saw this, FRS, as a reminder that the Ukrainian Nationalists are in the 'catbird seat';

Yarosh reminds Poroshenko about Yanukovych's fate важная новость? 47

9:22, — Ukraine
11801 views
Yarosh reminds Poroshenko about Yanukovych's fate

The leader of the Right Sector accused the president of Ukraine of betraying the national interests.

Dmytro Yarosh wrote it on his Facebook page, commenting on the special status of the Donbas region.

“If Petro Poroshenko does not come to senses, Ukraine will have a new president and commander-in-chief. If anyone doubts it, he can write a letter to Yanukovych. He can confirm that what seems impossible can be made possible,” the leader of the Right Sector wrote.

Dmytro Yarosh said that voting in the Rada on the issue “does not have any sense and legal force”.

The law on the special status of Donbas was criticised by many Ukrainian politicians. In particular, the leader of the Batkivshchyna party Yulia Tymoshenko says a part of the country was given under the protectorate of Russia.

The law on the special status proposes holding the local election in Ukraine's southeast on December 7 and provides for a special procedure of appointing top prosecutors and judges. The bill was submitted to the Verkhovna Rada by the president of Ukraine.

[Euroman]

Russia has lost Ukraine from day one of this conflict. Even if they get Eastern Ukraine, the Easterners will spend decades in poverty. The infrastructure of the east has been reduced to rubble (kind of like the Russian Ruble).


Russians in Moscow are mourning the Ruble. It's funeral time. The currency is dead and Russia is very close to utter global humiliation.



Even traditional Russian allies are smelling Russian blood. Lukashenko has asked Russia to return stolen land to Mongolia and Kazakhstan.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/08/l ... -mongolia/


Happy time photos from Donetsk.



Yeah Russia, take the East. How many trillions of worthless Rubles will you spend on rebuilding that scorched territory?

[Igor Antunov]

It took from 1991-2006 to get the economy from total collapse to pre-1991 levels, and that is despite the 1998 financial market crash. Yet it took decades to get back Crimea. Territory is far more valuable than the seasonal worth of a currency. Russia will continue to expand its territories, strike generational trade deals with powers that will inherit the economic future (India/China) and it will continue to humiliate NATO at every turn.

The Eurasian Union is coming along nicely; http://www.times.am/?p=96267&l=en

[jessupjonesjnr87]

The rebuilding of East Ukraine will provide much business employment and profit for many Russian companies. I bet they can't wait to get in there to start rebuilding.

[pikachu]

Russia is interested in the Ukrainian economy, and it would have really preferred to get control over it while it was still at least in semi-functional shape, but it was denied that opportunity by a combination of factors.

Now, both Moscow and Kiev are essentially working together to destroy the Ukrainian economy. And only after it has been sufficiently destroyed will NATO and by extension the Ukrainian nationalists have acquiesced themselves to the Russian control over Ukraine, which will have become a largely impoverished neighbor entirely dependent on Russian subsidy. This is a "scorched earth" policy, so to speak, and it is the minimum price that Russia agreed to pay when it got itself into this.

Furthermore it is questionable whether Russia will even have the funds needed to subsidize and reconstruct an impoverished Ukraine. The Russian economy has been slagging and nearly stagnating ever since the commodity boom had ended, and now with the US rapidly increasing its own oil and gas production, the energy prices are dropping and are likely to continue dropping. Part of what's keeping the prices at a reasonable level is the chaos in Libya, Nigeria, and the Middle East which interrupts production as well as the US oil export ban. If these factors were removed, and they're not going to be around forever, prices may fall even further. So Russia may have to deal with a really tough combination of factors all at once: an outdated and inefficient economy, resumed demographic decline (meaning less workforce and more pressure on social services), decreased energy prices, impoverished dependencies like Ukraine, and potentially some continuing sanctions from the West. It will be interesting to see how the Kremlin plans to pull that one off, but it won't be easy. If I were to guess, I would expect Russia to become even more authoritarian and repressive as it strives to minimize political risks and contain any possible fallout from the crisis.

[Euroman]

By the insane logic of the pro-ruskies on this thread Russia should bomb itself once every year because rebuilding itself gives heaps of employment opportunities to its business. Some would call this idiotic economic planning, but to Russians this might be a way of life.


As for inheriting new territory or what not Igor, it doesn't help Russia's pathetic position what so ever. Russia is already the largest country in the world and is totally mismanaged. With its almost infinite natural resources, Russia somehow manages to be a developing nation, a proud member of BRIC. Russia could own the entire world and all it would do is reduce the World's total GDP.


Russia is all but pathetic and it shows. With all of Eastern Europe under its control, it only managed to blow farts. And none of those Eastern European countries have anything good to say about Russia, because Russia just simply sucks with its idiotic economic policies. Like the one mentioned before, "We will bomb ourselves so we can rebuild ourselves. We have infinite (imaginary) money." Hint: Russia doesn't have infinite money.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

By the insane logic of the pro-ruskies on this thread Russia should bomb itself once every year because rebuilding itself gives heaps of employment opportunities to its business. Some would call this idiotic economic planning, but to Russians this might be a way of life.

No because it would cause to much local chaos that's why you find some other poor country to knock down and rebuild instead. American companies have been cleaning up for years by going into war torn countries and . . . cleaning up.

[Euroman]

Partially right. America has been rebuilding OIL RICH nations. In fact America has thrown huge loans at France and the UK after the war. Key words, loan, France, UK, OIL RICH. Neither of which is bombed out Eastern Ukraine. America always saw ridiculous returns on its investments.


An example of America doing it the Russian way would be destroying all of a poor country which has few resources and then spending good public money to rebuild a worthless territory. Maybe the best example is Afghanistan. However, Afghanistan has vast amounts of resources, but I call this example idiotic, because America is yet to see any return and may never see any.


So, yeah. Russia will take tax payer money and instead of putting it into R&D, education, healthcare or other areas and instead rebuild Eastern Ukraine back to where it was pre-war. Genius! With Russia's economic policies it will take Eastern Ukraine a mere 20 years to achieve it's pre-war level. Magnificent! And will Russians ever see their money back from that region? Maybe in 100-200 years? M-A-Y-B-E being the keyword.

[Solastalgia]

Just watched an interesting documentary short on the DNR. Check it out when you have the chance.

[youtube]woD44CsR4jg[/youtube]

[JohnRawls]

The situation in ukraine is becoming more complicated as time goes by. Basically it is a pivotal point for us. A change has accured durring the conflict in the minds of European, American etc politicians/strategists/generals. Why is it important?

Well to begin a bit, Pikachues opinion on the situation is solid but he views the situation as a whole, not each peace seperately, and in this case it is important. Because what happened in Ukraine is a cause for concern for everybody. To start it off, we need to understand what is this war in Ukraine, why it happened, how it happened and what means are employed. Regarding what it is about, pikachu already posted numerouse times about it so i wont go into that. The two 1st question will be really borish for most but i think i still need to outline where i am coming from.

1) How it happened?

The main point here is that it did happen spontaniously but in the same time it didnt. The annexation of Crimea was a direct action taken by the Russian government in response to the Maidan uprising. That is clear as day and not really deniable. So saying that Russia is the agressor is a bit far fetched because Maidan did change the socio economical and political situation in the country but having said that action in Crimea was too fast and too decisive which actually means the Russians were prepared for this outcome which also means preparations were long in the making for this. Perhaps even longer than a decade which is the real concern of this conflict but we will get into this later on. As for DNR/LNR its the same. Donetsk and Luhansk uprisings are also not a spontaniouse event that didnt have any preparations behind them. Actually it seems Kharkov was also on the list but the uprising got supressed/stopped there. I didnt discover America for most of you here, but this is important and again we will get into it in the end.

So to summarise, Russia used a spontaniouse Maidan uprising to further its preplanned and prepared scenario for Crimea and rest of Ukraine.

2) Why it happened?

Again, this is not exactly discovery of America but still needs to be outlined. Our interest and Russian interest collided in ukraine, which lead to this particular situation. Maidan did happen spontaniously but with our support while DNR/LNR/Crimea happened as a counter action of Russia to the changed situation to put it really short.

3) What means were employed?

This is basically the most important question here. Basically what the hell is Putinkrieg/Ukraine war.... This is also the answer to our sanctions, well why we are putting them atleast. Russia didnt really invent anything new here, but it did significantly improve the formula that we have been using for the last 10 years or so. The conflict itself doesn't last as long as the military action lasts. In preparation Media,News, etc were used as a weapon to undermine the opinions in the country and to ligitimise Russian military action. The idea of Russian World didnt appear out of nowhere, it existed since atleast the Brozne Night (This is the first time i actually heard the term and what might stand behind it). So the conflict didnt really begin in 2013/2014 it begun LONG ago and its not only employed against Ukraine but also Baltic states and any country Russia might deem either its Ally or has significant ammount of Russian speaking people in it.

So having waited for right moment military action was taken both in Crimea and DNR/LNR.(If you can call the fall of a pro-russin regime a right moment) Now since preparation was done Russia recieved both local support and a ligitimisation of its agression in Ukraine because people support Russian side more in the regions that have the war and in the regions it wants to take. This kinda leads to a problem also, since the war itself is not fought by Russia directly but by local 'paramilitaries' with the support of Russia behind them. Nobody can claim that Russia is intervening militarily so sending 'aid' to fight Russia will look bad for anybody who does it. Not to mention that Nato countries defend each other against Foreighn military agression, but in this case, it is a localised internal conflict. So again, using military force to destroy rebels/protesters is not something we can do because of political/international obligations and treaties. Not to mention the locals who were brainwashed/opinion swayed will only polarise themselves towards Russia.

The soldiers fighting on the Russian side are a bit different what we use. The proxies that we use in other countries are usually 3rd party contracters or different state affiliates but incase of Russia, it is usually either its professional soldiers or patriots or both. Basically we have no direct control over ISIS while Russian soldiers/mercs/volunteers are controlled directly from Moscow. Those soldiers see it as a 'duty' to protect the motherland. So while the soldiers that are deployed by us are either 'ideologically motivated' or doing it for the money, Russian soldiers are both. We have no direct control over our proxies but Russia does.

Finally this strategy and tactics that were employed can only go one way and it is against us. The whole fundation of our countries (The west) is plurality. The starting point of the conflict is basically abusing this plurality to achieve legitimacy and change opinion. Only then can direct action be taken. But it wont work the other way around, there is a lot less prularity in Russia, so doing the same trick is very hard if not impossible. Simply put we cant arrest journalists and bann tv stations because we are, who we are. Unless something changes in this regard, the situation might repeat itself.

4) Summary:

What is worrisome about this is that Russia not only has a clear geopolitical goal now, but also has preparations behind it. It has not stood still but rearmed its forces and 'upgraded' its theory for armed conflicts. It used the same formula that we use and improved it. Now whenever we are invloved in some imperealist adventure we need to look behind our back because counter action can be taken. (Examples are Syria and Ukraine) So we are resorting to sanctions in this situation because we have no cure for the disease. We can only treat the symptoms or try to prevent the disease but we can not erradicate it.

The absense of a clear geopolitical goal/action plan to deal with Russias new strategy is worrisome to say the least. The sanctions can only slow down Russia or hurt it in the short term but will not stop it. Sanctioning Russia is weakness because we dont really know what to do.

P.S. Please don't respond to this with 'Imperealists are evil', or something along those lines. Imperealism is a fact of life, in any age, in any country, at any given time.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Partially right. America has been rebuilding OIL RICH nations. In fact America has thrown huge loans at France and the UK after the war. Key words, loan, France, UK, OIL RICH. Neither of which is bombed out Eastern Ukraine. America always saw ridiculous returns on its investments.

Putins billionaire cronies would gladly rebuild east Ukraine with the spare change in their back pockets in exchange for influence over the land and people who live there.

[pikachu]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /16806243/

Ukraine conflict causes bitter family feuds

DONETSK, Ukraine — Anna and Wladislaw Rychenko's marriage ended because of irreconcilable differences: She is a Ukraine nationalist; he favors a separate Russian-aligned state for this eastern region.

The couple met in 2005 and fell in love despite conflicting political views. "Turn that trash off," Anna would shout at Wladislaw when the Russian news channel was on. Tensions continued to grow, and by the time war broke out in eastern Ukraine six months ago, the couple had split.

Such family feuds are not unique. The conflict has divided regions, dissolved marriages, pitted siblings against each other and estranged children from their parents.

"Many people in Donbass who were previously not paying attention to politics suddenly became radicalized when this conflict started," said Maksym Butchenko, 37, using the local name for the eastern Ukraine region that includes the rebel stronghold of Donetsk.

A fragile truce is holding – barely. Last week, each side blamed the other for shelling that hit a school and nearby van, killing at least 10. Clashes continue at the airport and in nearby towns as the death toll from the fighting has grown beyond 3,000.

As Ukrainians work to deepen the peace, the ruptures in society and within families are going to be harder to heal. Butchenko knows this well – he hasn't spoken with his father in months.

Two years ago, Butchenko left Rovenki, a miners' town in eastern Ukraine and moved to Ukraine's capital, Kiev. He had always gotten along well with his parents and brother, who stayed in the east. But a few months ago, the family relationship turned sour when his father called him a "fascist" in the midst of a heated political discussion.

Butchenko recalls that he used to disagree with his parents' support of pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych, who fled to Russia in January in the face of mass protests, but the arguments did not become intense until more recently.

Butchenko said his younger brother, with whom he had always been close, called in August to say he had joined the insurgents "to protect his land" against the Ukrainian army. His parents, a miner and a schoolteacher, were also anti-Ukrainian and suddenly saw him as a "fascist" enemy of the region.
Wladislaw Rychenko stands in the streets of Donetsk

Wladislaw Rychenko stands in the streets of Donetsk without his wife and child.(Photo: Moritz Gathmann)

"They irrationally hate everything Ukrainian," he said. "I don't understand how I could become a 'fascist' so quickly."

Vitalii Dzivoroniuk, 30, says he learned in May that his father in Severodonetsk in the east voted for the independence referendum held by the rebels. He couldn't believe his ears.

"I was shocked because all the people that I ever learned anything from, all the people I respect – they all are pro-Ukrainian," he said. "And suddenly my own parents turned out to have anti-Ukrainian views."

Dzivoroniuk is sure that his parents' pro-Russian views can be attributed to the fact that they haven't seen the world. In the past 10 years, they have stayed within Ukraine and Russia.

That is typical in this region. A poll conducted by Kiev-based Research and Branding Group in 2012 found that 77% of Ukrainians had never been abroad and that 36% had never traveled outside their home region.

Dzivoroniuk left Severodonetsk after high school, studying in Kiev and France for two years, an experience he said broadened his views and put him at odds with his family. As a result, he said, he avoids any political discussions with his parents.

"It isn't easy, and I have to be very careful," he said. "Any topic can accidentally slide into the discussion of the ongoing events, and I try to not let that happen."

Butchenko said the divisions run so deep that many families and neighbors will be unable to reconcile for a long time, whether the region becomes independent or resumes closer ties with Kiev.

"This all went too far," Butchenko said. "I don't think we will be able to settle it and go back to how it was before – not in this generation."

I've already given a personal example of my Ukrainian coworker. Part of his family is Ukrainian nationalist and lives in Lviv, the other part is pro-Russian Tatar living in Kharkiv. He told me that they haven't talked to each other since March, I think.

[Euroman]

I like two lines in your article Pika.


Dzivoroniuk is sure that his parents' pro-Russian views can be attributed to the fact that they haven't seen the world. In the past 10 years, they have stayed within Ukraine and Russia.

That is typical in this region. A poll conducted by Kiev-based Research and Branding Group in 2012 found that 77% of Ukrainians had never been abroad and that 36% had never traveled outside their home region.


In fact that's true for anyone. If Russia is all you've known it's easy to think that it's the only option. It's the OLD vs the YOUNG. And to the young belongs the future.





Maybe Russia will learn one day.

[Thompson_NCL]

More than 100 football fans have been detained in Belarus after nearly the entire stadium joined in chanting a well-known song insulting Russian President Vladimir Putin, media reports say.

Both local and visiting fans at the Euro 2016 qualifier between Ukraine and Belarus in Borisov came together in a rousing rendition of the song - which has became a popular expression of opposition to Putin in Ukraine, the Belarusian paper Nasha Niva reports. Belarusian fans are also heard voicing their solidarity with their Ukrainian counterparts by chanting the signature slogan of the Maidan protests in Kiev - Slava Ukrayini ("Glory to Ukraine"). The Ukrainians return the favour by chanting Zhyve Belarus ("Long live Belarus").

After the match, about 100 Ukrainian and 30 Belarusian were held and taken to the local KGB station, reportedly on suspicion of using "obscene language", the opposition website Charter '97 reports. According to one report, some of them will be taken to court and are expected to receive a five-day sentence. The Ukrainian fans will also be deported.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-fr ... e-29567246

Fantastic to see solidarity between those people. Belarus is currently shackled to Russia, but its people are clearly showing the right spirit.

[roxunreal]

Since we're into humorous pictures, I always found this one funny:


This is from three months ago when separatists blew up overpasses on roads leading to Donetsk to stop the feared assault by Ukraine's Army. It's an example at efficiency which shows how to blow up a bridge without managing to sever either the road connection beneath it nor the rail connection on it