[Baff]

The union doesn't have to be over.
Get rid of the dogmatics and it can carry on just fine.

If all the EU does is "free movement of people" then yes, it is over.
If the only reason southern and Eastern Europeans are in the EU is so that they have an open path of migration out of Eastern and Southern Europe, then yes, the union is over.

It adapts. Learns to bend like a tree in the wind. Or it breaks.
Free movement of people is finished. Whether the EU is finished with it, very unlikely I expect. Depends on how truly power mad they are.


by Glen » Tue 26 Jul 2016, 15:16 

Thank you for mentioning countries you suspect of having immigration controls. Can you cite sources please? In light of this information, what do you think the implications for Switzerland will be? How will this impact UK-EU negotiations?
Sorry no links or exact countries and examples. I've given you my best guess for the ones I wrote.
My sources will be newspapers and TV news. I didn't make a mental note of who it was doing it or the date it occurred. It doesn't affect me enough to note it.
I'm sorry but I don't remember those details. Feel free to dismiss this out of hand or investigate it further at your discretion. Chip in more if it interests you and you know more.

You are trying to use historic opportunity to reinforce blanket power, without disclosing the new agenda.
You attack threats to one worldview without discussing the merits of another worldview.
Your authoritarian tone suggests you assume your opponents are weaker.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum.


I'm explaining to you the political situation in the UK as I understand to be.

Some things aren't open for re-appraisal.
You can discuss Britain staying in the EU, but it isn't. There is no new agenda.
The decision has been made. That's the agenda.
Couldn't be clearer.



What merits do you wish to hear about?
The end of free movement of people, the merits are obvious. Hundreds of millions of people stop being pissed off with you. Less civil wars and dead people action.
The EU doesn't lose more members and trade deals because it is too hung up on becoming a world power and enforcing rules on people that they do not want or approve of.


My opponents don't have to be weaker. One single moment of weakness is all I need.
But if you are expecting any mercy on Brexit. You can forget it.
None was offered me.
I've put up with 25 years of this shit and if you want the UK to join the EU you can referendum it to do so after you've put with 25 years of freedom.

Let's be serious here.
In a nation reknowned and lauded for it's struggle against European Socialism and European federalisation over half the people, 17 million of them, said no to the EU.
What are you going to do about it?
Absolutely nothing.

It's done. The only card you've get left to play is military conquest.
Take your best shot. It will be your last.

What do I expect the ramifications for Switzerland's end of free movement to be?
As I said. A placebo fine.

Nothing. Zip. Nada.
A great will by all involved not to mention it.

Business as usual minus the free movement. It's not a big deal so why pretend it is?

Who will miss free movement? Who joined the EU for that?

[Glen]

If all the EU does is "free movement of people" then yes, it is over. Free movement of people is finished. Whether the EU is finished with it, very unlikely I expect. Depends on how truly power mad they are. Some things aren't open for re-appraisal. Who will miss free movement? Who joined the EU for that?

As highlighted in my previous post, the issue is not free movement, but the pan-European blanket policies that blindly police free movement.

Citizens demand policies that are fair to their regional economy, and blanket pan-European policies cannot be fair to every regional economy, as evidenced by the EU maintaining development policies with the explicit aim of balancing regional differences. Meanwhile the EU tries to fit a blanket pan-European policy on free movement.

EU policies have put free movement in Europe under strain, but the concept of free movement in Europe is very much alive:

Prime Minister Theresa May said there was a "strong will" to preserve the free movement of people between the UK and the Irish Republic. "Trade between the United Kingdom and Ireland is worth almost £1bn each week, supporting 400,000 jobs across our islands".

The BBC quote is the statement I was waiting for from PM May. In my view of the treaties, and the future of the EU, the 1956 Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement trumps all.

The core strength of the EU is that it contains Italy, France and Germany; while its core weakness is its own inflexible treaties and polarised policies.

[Rich]

Some of the brexiteers want people from Pakistan, Egypt and Somalia to have the same opportunity to come to Britain as Poles, Czechs and Romanians. They believe Brexit has given them the mandate to open the door to these previously "discriminated against" countries. Beware the agenda of the points system advocates.

[Glen]

Some of the brexiteers want people from Pakistan, Egypt and Somalia to have the same opportunity to come to Britain as Poles, Czechs and Romanians. They believe Brexit has given them the mandate to open the door to these previously "discriminated against" countries. Beware the agenda of the points system advocates.

What is your objection to having a fair and equitable system in the UK?

When an employer interviews candidates from Romania and Pakistan, what they want is the best person for the job. What they do not want a centralised government trying to tell them who that best person is.

[Baff]

I see no reason to discriminate in favour of a continental European.
I would however be very willing to discriminate in favour of a New Zealander, and Australian and a Canadian. Not to mention my Japanese Mrs.

But other people will have different favourites so perhaps it's fair to set the same for all? Personally I don't mind playing favourites.


I think free movement is an issue. (Not the only issue)
And I don't think it is popular anywhere. More "put up with".
For me Free Movement of people can be abbrieved to two words.
Uncontrolled immigration.

It's not broadly popular. No one is like "hey I must have free movement of people."
What do we want? Free movement of people. When do we want it? Now. Now, Now.

Er no. No one singing in the street for that one.

Why do you want it?
What is the point of pissing off hundreds of millions of people? What is it that you gain that so outweighs all that bad will it generates?

Pointless political dogma. Oh dear will prime minister Wally Wibcock have to lose face?
So what. Let him.

In the event that a blanket EU wide policy cannot be fair to all under it's blanket, then don't make a blanket policy.
Not rocket science that one.
Insteads use as many opt outs and caveats as you need.

So we can drop free movement by allowing nationally decided crisis brakes and blah blah blah.
But drop it they will. Some face saving way.

[KlassWar]

If the Euro periphery loses freedom of movement, support for the EU in the EU periphery will collapse. Being trapped in an uncompetitive low wage economy dominated by unrestrained foreign capital is not an appealing proposition. If the workers of the EU periphery lose the right to migrate to where the decent paying jobs are there'll be populist Euroskeptic landslides all over the periphery.

[Baff]

Then the periphery should plan to make it's leave.

If they insist on rights in other peoples countries against the wishes of the residents of said countries, they have talked themselves out of international co-operation completely.

[Glen]

No one is like "hey I must have free movement of people."
What do we want? Free movement of people. When do we want it? Now. Now, Now.
Er no. No one singing in the street for that one.

Maintaining the free movement of people is a core issue for your safety in the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic.

Dismantling military border posts in Ireland was a component of the 1998 peace deal. The return of border posts would strain all involved countries, and that would provide renewed political ammunition to Sinn Fein. PM May and PM Kenny support retaining the status quo, which traces its roots to the 1956 free trade agreement, and to the 1998 peace agreement.

[Baff]

I've had 1,000 Irish immigrants camped in my garden. Talk about living in fear and hell.
Free movement with Ireland is top of my list of "no thank you's".
Never in my life has my family been less safe. Sustained threat.

If you need a border post, you'll get one. And you do need one.

Like you I'd like to see free movement over the Irish border. I think it's good for inter Irish relations.
Unfortunately that little aspiration has already been well and truly poisoned by the behaviour of Irish immigrants in the UK.

So free movement? No way in hell. I've been on the receiving end of that little chestnut thank you very much.
Keep your trouble makers at home.

Totally up for trading with you guys, holidaying with you guys partying with you guys. Bailing you out once in while.
Having you live here at your discretion? Not a snowballs chance in hell.
Top of the list of undesirables.

[Glen]

If the Euro periphery loses freedom of movement, support for the EU in the EU periphery will collapse. Being trapped in an uncompetitive low wage economy dominated by unrestrained foreign capital is not an appealing proposition. If the workers of the EU periphery lose the right to migrate to where the decent paying jobs are there'll be populist Euroskeptic landslides all over the periphery.

I don't know much about the periphery states so maybe the following is unfair, but please give it a moment of thought.

A distinction can be made between the free movement of people and the free movement of labour. The former can be restricted without restricting the latter, and this can be achieved by allowing automatic free movement to anyone who has an employment contract or a formal interview in the designated country. Such a policy would prevent economic migrants from: taking a gamble with their future, taking advantage of a welfare state, undercutting a minimum wage.

There could be between 10,000 and 13,000 victims of slavery in the UK, higher than previous figures, analysis for the Home Office suggests. Modern slavery victims are said to include women forced into prostitution, "imprisoned" domestic staff and workers in fields, factories and fishing boats. It said the victims included people trafficked from more than 100 countries - the most prevalent being Albania, Nigeria, Vietnam and Romania - as well as British-born adults and children.

We have slaves in the UK now and, with the exception of prostitution, this is a relatively recent phenomena. Desperate economic migrants entering the UK without work risk falling prey to this despicable underworld, and by disrupting work they take the poorest incumbent workers down with them. EU policies on free movement are grossly negligent and measurably dangerous.

[Glen]

I've had 1,000 Irish immigrants camped in my garden. Talk about living in fear and hell.
Free movement with Ireland is top of my list of "no thank you's".
Never in my life has my family been less safe. Sustained threat.

Please tell us more. How long ago are we talking?

[Baff]

About 5 years ago. Traveller invasion.
Pikey's. Catholics.
Robbery. Vandalism. Intimidation. All day all night. Every day every night.


Not welcome. Sorry. It's not just me this has happened to. Not by a long long shot.
No more free movement from Ireland. Hell no. Brexit = end

[Glen]

Are Irish Travellers a product of contemporary free movement agreements?

Irish Travellers do not look any different from the native community, but in the UK they have been recognised as an ethnic minority - with their own culture, traditions and language. Their true origins are not exactly known, but some historians suggest they are descendants of the Irish peasants who became landless after Oliver Cromwell's military campaign in Ireland and during the potato famine of the 1840s.

Not all Travellers trace their roots to immigration:

... the new gypsies began in 1986 when a group of Post-Punk Anti-Thatcher protesters headed out of London into the English countryside. London based photographer Iain McKell followed these New Age Travelers to the West Country and over the years he watched them become a hybrid tribe-the new gypsies-present-day rural anarchists, living in elaborately decorated horse-drawn caravans. Known as "Horsedrawn," the new gypsies share a desire for sustainability, a love of self-reliance, and a disdain for the trappings of contemporary life.

More numerous contemporary Travellers are recent arrivals fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe, often blamed for fly-tipping and noise pollution in the UK:

Britain has one of the largest Roma populations in western Europe as around 200,000 migrants have set up home in the country. Most of the migrants who have set up home in Britain have arrived since a number of eastern European countries joined the European Union in 2004. With a population of around 12 million Roma are the largest ethnic minority in Europe, but often find themselves living in extreme poverty and subjected to discrimination. Many of the Roma in the UK are believed to have come from Slovakia, Bulgarian, Romanian, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland. The immigrants are escaping from areas where they have been “excluded and discriminated against for centuries”.

I sympathise with your account, and I doubt that preventing cross-border movement would impact Irish Travellers because most are born in the UK.

[Baff]

I've been to Translyvania. I've met the Roma.
I don't want them either.
I understand why they are the way they are and I have much sympathy for their predicaments. But the things they do? Not allowed here. Totally inappropriate behaviour that would result in instant grievous violence by a UK resident.
Renting out your children to lorry drivers for example. If I saw someone doing that in England, I would beat the living crap out of them on the spot.
No matter how poor you are, some things you just can't do here.


But they are nothing like the issue here the Irish are. Wrong scale.

I'm not interested in tracing travellers families tree's, only their movements.
When they go back to Ireland to dodge the police next time, they stay there.

[Atlantis]

I've been to Translyvania. I've met the Roma.

What the world needs least is British snobbery and your condescending attitude towards Europeans.

Deep down you still consider all Europeans to be low-lives and sleazeballs.

You prejudices towards Europeans haven't changed significantly since the times of Dickens. No wonder the Chinese think of you as a historical relic.

[layman]

Deep down you still consider all Europeans to be low-lives and sleazeballs.

Takes on to know one

But seriously, the crime statistics on people from romania here are shocking.

[noemon]

Are Irish Travellers a product of contemporary free movement agreements?

No they are not, the Travellers in Cambridge are all British.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/176672 ... -crackdown

I sympathise with your account, and I doubt that preventing cross-border movement would impact Irish Travellers because most are born in the UK.

Almost 15 years in Cambridge I have never in my life seen a single European Gypsie. I have seen a lot of British Travellers though.

[Glen]

I'm not interested in tracing travellers families tree's, only their movements.
When they go back to Ireland to dodge the police next time, they stay there.

Media portrayals suggest most Irish Travellers in the UK are British nationals (the BBC names them Pavees).

How did you conclude that Irish Travellers can stay in the Republic of Ireland without being deported? Is there evidence to suggest joint Irish-British nationality is the norm among Irish Travellers?

I agree that checkpoints facilitate halting fugitives irrespective of nationality, and I do not view checkpoints as undermining free movement, but there is a unique danger associated with reintroducing border patrols in Ireland.

[Glen]

Travellers in Cambridge are all British. Almost 15 years in Cambridge I have never in my life seen a single European Gypsie. I have seen a lot of British Travellers though.

I think you mean Cambridgeshire. The likes of caravans and trailers are too large to move through Cambridge.

The nearest I have seen to Gypsie-like travellers in Cambridge are festival goers. Incidentally, I think this is when bike thefts spike in Cambridge, and used bicycle prices drop across the rest of the UK. Anecdotal evidence of travelling criminals?

[noemon]

I think you mean Cambridgeshire. The likes of caravans and trailers are too large to move through Cambridge.

No, I mean Cambridge, I live on Trumpington road(less than mile for the city-centre) and I did not say caravans and trailers, I said Travellers.

The nearest I have seen to Gypsie-like travellers in Cambridge are festival goers.

The important part is that all of them are British, not Gypsie Roma, these are different so you feeling for Baff because of Romanian Gypsies is quite disingenuous.