[DanDaMan]

So the choice is to pay for treatment you don't want or decide in advance to die rather than risk being treated somewhere you don't like?

Don't ask me! It's your crazy scenario!
As far as i can tell your patient is nuts!
And ask anyone here...I know nuts! ;)

How about going back to the original subject.

[PBVBROOK]

You have never posted a single argument supporting your side of the original subject.

[DanDaMan]

Yeah i did!
I said Obama suffers from a mental disease called Liberalism that he caught some Liberal school! ;)

True... I have no physical evidence.... but just watch him babble on television!

[PBVBROOK]

But, you see. That is your problem. You have mistakenly concluded that Obama is a liberal. He is most decidedly not a liberal. At least not in practice. He is a smart Chicago Politician. He is a bit more liberal than Bush on some issues but not many.

[DanDaMan]

He's not a classic liberal.. true.
He's a modern Liberal with socialist/progressive/collective left wing agendas.

[PBVBROOK]

He's a modern Liberal with socialist/progressive/collective left wing agendas.

I think not. He opposes gay marriage, is opposed to a single-payer health care system, he is spending a fortune protecting corporatism against itself, is strong on free trade and is very weak in protecting unions and the right of the people to organize.

He is a bit left of Bush but far from a socialist or even progressive.

[Kapanda]

My position is that it's immoral to gamble on burdening ones children with debt.
Responsible adults always bear the burden so the child no longer has to carry our cross!

In this I essentially agree with you. Not in principle necessarily, but I would also rather go through the pain caused by our own mistakes, and have us come out of the other side better. All the financial institutions would fail, a whole lot of businesses would fail, a whole lot of people would go unemployed, but when we come out we'd come out better than ever.

Of course, it would never ever ever be implemented. No administration, Obama or Hoover (1930s) would be able to sit still and not do anything.

[DanDaMan]

I think not. He opposes gay marriage, is opposed to a single-payer health care system, he is spending a fortune protecting corporatism against itself, is strong on free trade and is very weak in protecting unions and the right of the people to organize.

He is a bit left of Bush but far from a socialist or even progressive.

Not PROGRESSIVE!!
Give me a break!
His whole position is a PROGRESSIVE taxation as the income gets PROGRESSIVELY bigger!!

He's for a PROGRESSIVE but slow march to universal health care!

He's for PROGRESSIVELY removing don't ask don't tell and other gay restrictions!

He is a progressive! PERIOD!

[Wolfman]

His whole position is a PROGRESSIVE taxation as the income gets PROGRESSIVELY bigger!!

A progressive tax system has nothing to do with being a progressive.

He's for a PROGRESSIVE but slow march to universal health care

That makes him a reformist like Teddy Roosevelt. Who was a republican, and is largely regarded as one of the best presidents in US history

He's for PROGRESSIVELY removing don't ask don't tell and other gay restrictions!

Good. Thats a stupid law that causes alot of military personnel to be forcibily discharged from the military. And few people in the military even give a damn about homosexuals. Don't believe me? Here's my proof:

He is a progressive! PERIOD!

Actually, what you posted makes him a Reformist at most. You want to see a Progressive? Look at FDR.

[DanDaMan]

His whole position is a PROGRESSIVE taxation as the income gets PROGRESSIVELY bigger!!

A progressive tax system has nothing to do with being a progressive.

FAIL!
Progressives progressively tax for distribution of wealth.

He's for a PROGRESSIVE but slow march to universal health care

That makes him a reformist like Teddy Roosevelt. Who was a republican, and is largely regarded as one of the best presidents in US history

FAIL!
read this..

3. Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive

Obama is a progressive!

[Wolfman]

Progressives progressively tax for distribution of wealth.

Thats called the package deal fallacy. It could as be a form of cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

read this..

I did. His method is more of that of a reformer then a progressive.

Edit: the definition of reform:

To put into a new and improved form or condition; to restore to a former good state, or bring from bad to good; to change from worse to better; to amend; to correct; as, to reform a profligate man; to reform corrupt manners or morals.

Notice that Progressive means that you want to add something to fix a problem, whereas a Reformist wants to take what already exists, and work with that. As of yet, the most I've seen Obama do would be considered Reformist

[QatzelOk]

On The Road to Socialism
by Barack Vladimir Obama

Step 1: Give the treasury to private banking interests

Step 2: Give the military industrial complex another war to make money from.

Step 3: Go bankrupt via pork-barrel politics while ideological dummies say you were too socialist.

[PBVBROOK]

Sadly you do not know what a progressive is so you are wrong as usual

Just to show how ridiculous your claims are and to help you understand:

His whole position is a PROGRESSIVE taxation as the income gets PROGRESSIVELY bigger!!

Yes. A system begun under Abraham Lincoln. He is also the president who brought us inheritance tax. Continued under every administration, conservative and less conservative, (we have never had a liberal administration except perhaps FDR) since Lincoln (Republican you recall) instituted it.

He's for PROGRESSIVELY removing don't ask don't tell and other gay restrictions!

Actually he is not. There is a bill before congress to do it. The Obama administration presented a brief in court in June supporting a lower court opinion upholding don't ask don't tell. But you said this is progressive. I am glad you see it as a progressive movement. That means that the country is changing for the better and that we liberals are winning. Here is a Gallup Poll:

“a new Gallup poll finds that most conservatives — 58% — now support openly gay people serving in uniform (nationally, 69% support the change; when Clinton assumed office, a Gallup poll found 53% of those polled opposed lifting the ban). Perhaps even more surprising, 58% of self-described Republicans, and 60% of weekly churchgoers, also support gay men and women serving openly in uniform.”

I guess it is not a progressive thing after all. It is just the end to an absurd, completely unsupportable piece of bigoted legislation with broad popular support.

He's for a PROGRESSIVE but slow march to universal health care!

Progressive? Not hardly. He opposes the single payer system that many progressives favor. In fact he has completely sold out to the insurance industry by taking the option off of the table. Of the 144 delegates to his health care summit, only one favored a single payer system and that person had to threaten to sue to get an invitation.

But on health care I am glad we progressives are winning the day. Universal healthcare is supported by such arch liberals as the National Federation of Independent Businessmen, Wal-Mart, General Motors, Ford, and many more multinational corporations. This has always been an economic issue more than a liberal/conservative one. But either way this is an issue upon which Obama takes a very conservative position.

So. As usual. You are wrong.

Now you have posted a definition of progressive from a dictionary. You, of course, have failed yet again. You really need to work on your debating technique. You should have posted the whole line which is:

Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive politician; progressive business leadership.

Obama is not a progressive politician. He is a centrist leaning slightly right of center, or as Wolf said, (at best) a minor reformer.

Now that you know more about what a progressive is you should not make this mistake in the future. But you will.

[DanDaMan]

EDIT...


Give me the Definition of a progressive and exactly what progressives want!

[Wolfman]

Brook, can I call you Brook? Brook, There is only one thing I want to say in response to your post.

Single Payer is not the only form of Universal Healthcare. So, to say that of the delegates only one supports single-payer is kind of a seperate matter.

I'd also like to think that Teddy was a liberal too.

Edit: Dan you moron, you already posted the definition.

[DanDaMan]

Edit: Dan you moron, you already posted the definition.

I know.
And Obama fit it.
Now I want to know PBV's definition.

[PBVBROOK]

Oy Veh!

As usual my response is, go back and read Dan.

[DanDaMan]

Progressive Agenda..... http://www.progressive2008.org/

End Imperial Foreign Policy, Redirect Funding
All U.S. troops and military contractors must be safely withdrawn from Iraq now with war funding redirected toward social needs at home, and humanitarian and reconstruction aid to the Iraqi people. Under our Constitution, Congress has the power of the purse to cut off funding that prolongs the occupation of Iraq. The disastrous war in Iraq must not be extended into an even more disastrous attack on Iran.[more]

Obama!

Healthcare for All
It is immoral for a country as wealthy as ours to have 47 million people with no healthcare coverage, and millions more with inadequate, overly expensive coverage. [more]

Obama!

Economic Justice
The Bush Administrations enormous tax breaks for the wealthy must be rolled back so that the richest 1 percent of our population (with yearly incomes averaging $1.3 million) will not pocket $300 billion over the next few years. [more]

Obama!

Stop Global Warming
No issue reveals more clearly the flaws of the U.S. political-economic system than global warming the triumph of greed and corporate power over the public good, and the near-sighted focus on the short-term over the welfare of future generations. [more]

Obama!

Reproductive Freedom/Civil Rights & Liberties
A womans reproductive freedom, including the right-to-choose, is essential to personal privacy and gender equality. Equal rights and equal opportunity must be a guiding principle of society, especially in view of historic and ongoing discrimination against women and racial, ethnic and sexual minorities. [more]

Obama!

Clean, Fair, Transparent Elections
The U.S. election system is in crisis, with voters facing political and racial obstacles in casting votes and in getting their votes counted. Big money and entrenched power deform the political process, with incumbents unfairly insulated by district gerrymandering and rules obstructing independent candidates and parties. [more]

Obama!

Any questions now?

[Godstud]

Aside from a picture of Obama there is nothing there saying that Obama is supporting this Progressive"club" and that it's anything more than a propaganda site for this club.
Just because a political group calls itself progressive does not mean that it actually is progressive. It's just a petition site and means NOTHING.
Nothing there indicates that Obama supports these statements.
You did notice the HOPE beneath pic of Obama. This is them hoping Obama makes the changes they want.

[PBVBROOK]

Progressive Agenda..... http://www.progressive2008.org/

End Imperial Foreign Policy, Redirect Funding
All U.S. troops and military contractors must be safely withdrawn from Iraq now with war funding redirected toward social needs at home, and humanitarian and reconstruction aid to the Iraqi people. Under our Constitution, Congress has the power of the purse to cut off funding that prolongs the occupation of Iraq. The disastrous war in Iraq must not be extended into an even more disastrous attack on Iran

Obama! McCain! Of course Obama sent a boatload more troops to Afghanistan. Did you forget that?

Healthcare for All
It is immoral for a country as wealthy as ours to have 47 million people with no healthcare coverage, and millions more with inadequate, overly expensive coverage.

Obama favors leaving the health care system in the hands of insurance companies, opposes mandatory employer contributions and readily admits that his system will still leave some people without coverage.

Economic Justice
The Bush Administrations enormous tax breaks for the wealthy must be rolled back so that the richest 1 percent of our population (with yearly incomes averaging $1.3 million) will not pocket $300 billion over the next few years.

Oh my poor man. You did not read Obama’s proposed 2010 tax cuts. You really should have. Here is an excellent article that will help you understand.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/142188-one-thing-you-may-not-know-about-the-obama-tax-cuts

Since you show little proclivity to read and learn how favorable these tax cuts are for affluent Americans let me simply use one quote:

•

Only the top 0.1% (>$2.7 million) would see a net tax increase and have more households faced with a tax increase than a tax decrease.

Yea raising taxes on the richest .1% of Americans is REAL progressive.

Stop Global Warming
No issue reveals more clearly the flaws of the U.S. political-economic system than global warming the triumph of greed and corporate power over the public good, and the near-sighted focus on the short-term over the welfare of future generations.

Obama! McCain and just about everyone in the country.

A quote from the Republican platform “…..common sense dictates that the United States should take measured and reasonable steps today to reduce any impact on the environment.”

Reproductive Freedom/Civil Rights & Liberties
A womans reproductive freedom, including the right-to-choose, is essential to personal privacy and gender equality. Equal rights and equal opportunity must be a guiding principle of society, especially in view of historic and ongoing discrimination against women and racial, ethnic and sexual minorities.

Obama! McCain favors a woman’s right to choose. But hold on…..Obama does not favor equal rights for sexual minorities. He opposes gay marriage.

Clean, Fair, Transparent Elections
The U.S. election system is in crisis, with voters facing political and racial obstacles in casting votes and in getting their votes counted. Big money and entrenched power deform the political process, with incumbents unfairly insulated by district gerrymandering and rules obstructing independent candidates and parties.

Obama! Wrong. Obama does not favor clean, fair and transparent elections. Far from it. His largest campaign contributions came from big business and the very wealthy. After promising to only accept public funding he reneged on his promise and took money from powerful lobbies and business interests. The most comprehensive campaign finance reform bill in us history was called what? You forgot. The McCain Fiengold act.

Any questions now?

Yes? Why do you think that Obama is a progressive. On all but one issue above he is either on the wrong side or at best lukewarm.

Take it from a real progressive; an old-fashioned American liberal. Obama is a slightly right of center populist. He is an old-time Chicago Politician and Harvard lawyer. Don’t get me wrong. I’m with him on a lot of his agenda. But when it comes to being a hard-core progressive? Not in a million years.