[Agent Steel]

Dishonorable yes, but that doesn't mean dishonest.

[U184]

I did not even know this thread was here

No joke. However this extends to all who are trained in hand to hand, Police, Military, etc. There are situational guidelines that are followed.

It is called progression of force: for hand to hand it goes like this:
One should not hurt, when holding is enough.
One should not maim, when hurting is enough.
One should not kill, when maiming is enough.

[U184]

Ah the OP I was going on the post right before yours Wolfman. I suppose I will need to address the OP as not to be rude.

[normalamerican]

Regarding a lawsuit, as a martial artist (or boxer, etc.) you're supposed to announce that you know whatever fighting system that you know, try to disingage from your attacker and not have to use what you know, and then and only then use what you know. Also, legally, you should really use your skills as little as you need to.....but the unspoken word is go apeshit until your attacker can't get up, then get out of dodge. The equivalent of shooting for the torso one time (as opposed to the eternal police accusers who always claim that you should shoot the maniac attacker in the little toe, lol).

Any school that's worth it's salt teaches this, along with the fighting.

[Godstud]

Bullshit. If someone is going to fight you, they're going to do it regardless of whatever you tell them about your "fighting style". If you're the practitioner, you should know not to get in fights, but if someone picks a fight with you, then anything goes.

How do YOU know that THEY aren't a practitioner of a martial art?

Does an attacker let you know of their skills prior to an attack?

Legally, if a person attacks you, you are allowed to use whatever force is reasonable, to stop them. If they fight you, and you put them in the hospital, then that's just too bad for them. They attacked you.

If they attack you, and you kill them, because you had such a large advantage and didn't know when to stop, then that's another story entirely.

[normalamerican]

If you're being physically attacked right off the bat, you're right.

If it starts with a bunch of milling around, yakking, posturing etc......yes, folks have been sued for jumping right into it with skills that amount to a weapon, that others don't have.

That's a fact, people who win fights get sued by people who started the fight, again and again. Using the fact that the winner had a dangerous skill that's only supposed to be used in competition........a lawyer's best friend. Unless you made all the concessions/ efforts that I listed.

[Godstud]

Warning someone you have skill is likely to do nothing, when it comes to posturing, yakking and milling around.

Getting sued by someone is not the same as winning the case. Can you provide some evidence showing that there are a significant number of cases where a person gets in a fight, loses because his opponent had a martial art, and then successfully sues that person?

You probably can't, since this is the exception.

Using the fact that the winner had a dangerous skill that's only supposed to be used in competition

Many skills are designed for self-defense, as well as competition, fitness, etc. Any time you are getting into a fight you are taking the chance that a person is a better fighter than you. I find this would not be a really good argument in court, particularly if the other person was the one starting the fight(the antagonist).

You could also claim that you had no knowledge that the other guy was not a martial artist. Reasonable doubt is easy to get when it comes down to perspective, which is what this is.

Unless you made all the concessions/ efforts that I listed.

There would be reasonable doubt that the person did not believe it, thus getting it dismissed on the grounds that everyone claims to have knowledge of martial arts. You saying you have martial arts, would not give you legal grounds to pound a person into a coma, regardless. it comes down to reasonable amount of violence.

I'd rather NOT inform my opponent that I had a 10th Dan Black Belt in Karate and was a skilled MMA fighter(of which I am neither), prior to a confrontation. He might pull a GUN on me then.

It works both ways.

[normalamerican]

Actually, what you do is discuss, de-escalate, disengage....unless /until you are cornered and not allowed to do so. You then say "I know some ___________" and then you go at it. You fight, and fight like an SOB, only when you've tried not to.

One key is that you don't just stand there with your nose and nuts flapping in the breeze. You stay in a ready position, and make some some space as you try to avoid fighting. You make an effort, but you fiight as soon as you have to.

They teach this where I study. It has 2 reasons - legal, ethical. Besides the possibility of being sued by the person who started it (if he loses), which happens, you also should care about trying to not hurt somebody even if it's their fault.

I'm sorry that you refuse to believe it. It's what MA schools teach, more often than not. Schools that don't teach this are more likely to be Billy-Bob-Badass types (Think Karate Kid, the dipshit guys).

[Godstud]

I'm sorry that you refuse to believe it. It's what MA schools teach, more often than not.

I don't refuse to believe it, but I don't believe that telling a person is going to do much to help a situation, normally. When a person is prepared to fight you, they aren't usually going to be discouraged by you telling them you know martial arts. That's all I am saying. I've seen it done, and seen it fail, after which the guy with martial arts almost kicked the guy's head almost clean off.

I am aware of what they tell people at martial arts schools. I learned some martial arts when I was in the Canadian Infantry. None of what I learned would be remotely suitable for any kind of bar brawl, etc., mind you. I can't say I remember much of it, since after my Armed Forces stint I never found a use for it, and never practiced. We were told to never use what we learned in a fight, unless we were prepared to kill the person, and the tactics we learned to avoid fighting was to tell them we didn't want to fight(while in a defensive stance, naturally), after which, if they insisted, you'd quickly break their nose(causing intense pain, tearing up, and generally discourage them, or angering them into recklessness). I'm glad I was the kind of guy who'd stop a fight, rather than start one, though. Safer, all around.

[ihofidel]

If you maim and cripple the aggressor invoking self-defense, you are still not off-the-hook. I tell you, there are cruel insatiable lawyers out there who can twist the facts for plaintiff. I broke somebody's legs using jiu-jitsu's deadly grappling, I got acquitted criminally but not civilly. I had to pay 30 thousand dollars. Just run away from a fight. That is my advise. Don't play macho or show off your macho image or instincts. You can regret them. What is wrong if you run away from a fight. I know of a Russian spy whom I've pissed off. He challenged me to a fight because he was confident due to my small body frame. I can easily break his neck but I ran away. He was under surveillance so I did not complicate the matter. He is my co-worker. His Canadian jokes are scripted. He waged a bet with a casino bettor on who can pick up 'that lady in the bar' but the bet was rigged. He shared his winnings with the prostitute. He also rigged a macho show-off of hitting an 'arab' in the neck after the 'arab provoked him. Turned out that he bribed the Arab to be a dummy. He "hates" communism and called me a 'damned commie". He does not know that I know he was the commie of the old Soviet Union. Nonetheless, he is still my co-worker. He works at funding, CIBC. MSantor or Marcelo Silva Santor is also my co-worker. ( I know the Russians will skin me alive for this foolishness but what can I do, it is true.)

[Potemkin]

I broke somebody's legs using jiu-jitsu's deadly grappling .... I know of a Russian spy whom I've pissed off. He challenged me to a fight because he was confident due to my small body frame. I can easily break his neck but I ran away.

ihofidel: International Man of Mystery.

[U184]

You are not required to reveal your knowledge of hand to hand combat in any state in the USA. (That I am aware of) On the other hand, any judge in any state will take into account your training, when looking at a case with your involvement and it will be seen in more of a negative light if you have had training and did not control yourself, when and if you could have.

[ihofidel]

Potemkin, I am only a son of a school teacher and a peasant. I grew up in Tel Aviv. My mentors are now in high places in Tel Aviv. I came to Canada to work and attain the American-Canadian dream. Now, all I do (20 hours a day) is scan the airwaves and chase spies in the woods. Sometimes, 'the city is our forest'. Such a boring job...Try biking with your scanner on and headphones on.

[Potemkin]

It's good to know that men like you are keeping the world safe for democracy, ihofidel. I will sleep easier in my bed tonight for this knowledge. Thank you.

[CounterChaos]

^ ...Well back to women and self defense:

I personally do not believe it is a good idea for women to engage in self defense classes that involves physical force upon their opponent. Firearms training or use of non-lethal deterrents (tear gas) however, I do agree with. Males are far stronger than females and can in most cases easily overpower a female even one that is highly trained. Females in most cases just can not apply enough force to a punch to incapacitate their opponent...This is not the movies, where Laura Croft kicks the crap out of everything. Shoot, spray in the eyes, scream and run....and keep screaming. That scream is your best defense and will trigger an immediate response from any friendly male in the area....We are just like that..

[U184]

I personally do not believe it is a good idea for women to engage in self defense classes that involves physical force upon their opponent. Females in most cases just can not apply enough force to a punch to incapacitate their opponent. Scream and run....and keep screaming. That scream is your best defense and will trigger an immediate response from any friendly male in the area....We are just like that..

I agree that no one should engaged in physical violence if it can be helped, I also agree that screaming and drawing attention to a situation is a good thing and that running should always be seen as a main option, if presented with such.

All that aside, I have been teaching martial arts for over 20 years now. In that time I have brought 100's of students to black belt level, both males and females. I vehemently disagree that women are unable to learn to defended themselves against men.

Martial arts is, and has always been, about learning to use your strengths against an opponents weaknesses and to use your opponents strengths against them.

I expect everyone of my black belts to be at a particular level of proficiency before being presented with their rank. I do not account for age, weight class nor sex. I guarantee you, women can be and are, as strong as men and in many cases, can learn to use what they have, to better advantage, than their male counterparts.

[CounterChaos]

I vehemently disagree that women are unable to learn to defended themselves against men.

Don't get me wrong friend, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It is good for every woman to learn how to kick a man in the nuts and the about the weakness of his shins; his windpipe, or how to gouge the eyes and popping the ears. Up close and personal though, she makes one mistake and he will hurt her so badly that she will not be able to reply. If you have been in the business that long, you know the difference in the muscle structure of a man and woman. A woman is at a great disadvantage up close and personal. It is best for her to do something quick and get the hell out of there, because she may not get a second chance. If you are an instructor, I really hope that you are stressing this to the women you are training. Women already know that they are not as strong as men, even though some may try to prove it, so you are not going to hurt anybody's feelings. Defense and run is a good thing, but up close and personal and going for the take-down-no way, in my opinion....

[U184]

As I said I have been instructing for a long time. This includes Close Quarter Combat Training for the US Military, where we have female soldiers.

You think of, nuts, shins, eyes, ears and the windpipe. (The windpipe is a major blow, meant to kill) I think of, joint locks that rip joints out of sockets and shattering bones, disrupting organs and smashing the temporal nerve juncture, crushing the brachial artery or the femoral artery/nerve juncture. (and the "windpipe")

You might find it hard to fight if you can not see, use your arms, stand or breath. When you think of self defense you might think of the crap you see in the movies or on the UFC, but in regards to a good Martial style, when in a combat situation, these things maim and kill.

I suppose that is the difference between Martial Arts and self defense...My Black Belts and ones from many styles, are expected to go toe to toe against other black belts, so a 14 year old 100lb girl who is the same rank is expected to, and does, go toe to toe with a 34 year old 220lb male. The winner is a "any given Sunday" situation.

A smaller man of 120lbs is not necessarily stronger than a 120lb female, that same female who say, has done gymnastics all her life, my be exceptionally stronger than even an average 200lb man. Faster, smaller and smarter is the whole point of Martial combat.

You may think a dick or a big bicep lends an advantage in combat, I just do not believe that to be true...

[CounterChaos]

Combat is a completely different situation...I am talking about situations in civilian life, that females deal with everyday. You are in a world where your style of instruction is valid and well placed. In the civilian world it is not...In my opinion.

[U184]

I am also a civilian instructor. You do not see protecting ones virtue, or ones life, as a combat situation?