[ninurta]

Everyone having the same tax rates doesn't mean we all pay the same thing, it simply means no one is favored and its the opposite of spreading the wealth.

And thats probably why Obama is against it.

[QatzelOk]

The above is absurd.
It completely ignores the reality of how each individual is motivated differently and on different levels.
Maybe if we were all ants or termites in a mound you would have a point.... but that's not the real world. It's fantasy where unicorns and fairies fly around.

So some of us deserve to earn the same as ants, while others deserve to earn as much as dinosaurs?

[eldrad]

Your argument is intriguing stopher 3, please continue. I haven't thought of considering money as a physical representation of work, skill and investment (better re-read my Ayn Rand, though I doubt she would look favourably at a progressive tax scheme). Essentially your saying that you are not taking from the rich the money they have worked for, only the money that they have been able to secure due to their position, and without appropriate work/risk?

[DanDaMan]

So some of us deserve to earn the same as ants, while others deserve to earn as much as dinosaurs?

What's the leading self motivation for higher education other than earning more money?
If we all earned the same amount, why bother working harder?

[Cartertonian]

If we all earned the same amount, why bother working harder?

QFT.

Mind you, of course, if we all earned the same amount, we'd all be paying the same amount of tax.

[Potemkin]

I haven't thought of considering money as a physical representation of work, skill and investment

What else would it be? To a Marxist, money represents congealed human labour (a logical conclusion from the labour theory of value). This is why just printing money without any connection to the amount of goods and services produced in the economy is a very, very bad idea. This is something even libertarians and Marxists can agree upon.

[QatzelOk]

What else would it be?

:Individual units of privilege which permit those who have inherited a surplus of it to enslave others (who haven't) with elaborate mathematical formulas that correspond to nothing real.

[ingliz]

I am a 100% in favour of a Flat Tax rate, a 100% tax rate with variable tax credits.

[DanDaMan]

:Individual units of privilege which permit those who have inherited a surplus of it to enslave others (who haven't) with elaborate mathematical formulas that correspond to nothing real.

Best give me your savings account number so you can avoid any bourgeoisie trappings!

[Gommi]

While taxation appears to directly violate individual freedom, one must also consider the opportunities created for individuals by the public allocation of those resources.

Libertarians equate morality with freedom, however if freedom entails condemning individuals to a life of insecurity, competition, and alienation, is freedom even moral or desirable?

[ninurta]

While taxation appears to directly violate individual freedom, one must also consider the opportunities created for individuals by the public allocation of those resources.

Libertarians equate morality with freedom, however if freedom entails condemning individuals to a life of insecurity, competition, and alienation, is freedom even moral or desirable?

Show's how little you actually know about how our system would work. How exactly would it cause insecurity?

As for competition, last thing I checked, that's what humans and all animals are on this planet to do, compete. Humans competing in an economy is alot easier than fighting a lion over the same buffalo for dinner the last time I checked. As for competition itself, its a good thing, it keeps the human spirit up, alive and well.

As for alienation, how so?

Freedom is both moral and desireable. It is desirable because everyone desires to make their own decisions, and if you don't, china would love you to move there for anti-democracy and anti-freedom propaganda, they need lots of people like you there who hate freedom. As for moral, depends, morals are subjective. To me yeah it is, you were born to live your life, so why should anyone live both theirs and yours?

[Gommi]

Show's how little you actually know about how our system would work. How exactly would it cause insecurity?

Current living conditions in America demonstrate the destabilizing effects of economic freedom. After years of market deregulation, incomes are stagnant, unemployment is increasing, and access to essential services is limited. How else would you define insecurity?

Freedom is both moral and desireable. It is desirable because everyone desires to make their own decisions, and if you don't, china would love you to move there for anti-democracy and anti-freedom propaganda, they need lots of people like you there who hate freedom.

In an economic sense, China is more free than America or other Western nations, as there is virtually no government control over the market, and people are able to invest capital without restraint. You may even consider China's urban centers such as Shanghai and Shenzhen to be ideal examples of Libertarianism, where individual freedoms are respected. And yet, as you suggested, there are no political rights, because if people were allowed to vote, the impoverished masses would undoubtedly elect a government that intervenes in the economy to provide for their collective needs. The people would voluntarily sacrifice freedom for security.

[ninurta]

[]Show's how little you actually know about how our system would work. How exactly would it cause insecurity?[]
Current living conditions in America demonstrate the destabilizing effects of economic freedom. After years of market deregulation, incomes are stagnant, unemployment is increasing, and access to essential services is limited. How else would you define insecurity?

No, it demonstrates the effects of a recession and the effects of bailouts. Not economic freedom.

[]Freedom is both moral and desireable. It is desirable because everyone desires to make their own decisions, and if you don't, china would love you to move there for anti-democracy and anti-freedom propaganda, they need lots of people like you there who hate freedom.[]
In an economic sense, China is more free than America or other Western nations,

Since when?

as there is virtually no government control over the market, and people are able to invest capital without restraint. You may even consider China's urban centers such as Shanghai and Shenzhen to be ideal examples of Libertarianism, where individual freedoms are respected.

I never knew a socialist country could have libertarianism in it. Especially when the government owns your property, so libertarian.

And yet, as you suggested, there are no political rights, because if people were allowed to vote, the impoverished masses would undoubtedly elect a government that intervenes in the economy to provide for their collective needs. The people would voluntarily sacrifice freedom for security.

While they have taken a step towards capitalism, they aren't fully capitalist and therefore not even close to libertarian. They have the right to vote for local leaders. They have political rights as long as they aren't against the Communist party. You might want to research China a little better. No they aren't a democracy, but like with not really being a capitalist country, they've adopted some of both local level democracy and some capitalism.

No libertarianism exists in china, maybe in Hong Kong, but i am not sure.

[DanDaMan]

In an economic sense, China is more free than America or other Western nations, as there is virtually no government control over the market, and people are able to invest capital without restraint. You may even consider China's urban centers such as Shanghai and Shenzhen to be ideal examples of Libertarianism, where individual freedoms are respected.

And there is your answer as to why capitalism works and statism fails.
American are held down by statist rules and regulations.
This is why America is failing and China is prospering.
Case in point... China said they will NEVER accept Cap & Trade.
When America does.... it's capitalism will suffer greatly and jobs and money will leave her because of statism regulation similar to old China & Russia.

[ninurta]

And there is your answer as to why capitalism works and statism fails.
American are held down by statist rules and regulations.
This is why America is failing and China is prospering.
Case in point... China said they will NEVER accept Cap & Trade.
When America does.... it's capitalism will suffer greatly and jobs and money will leave her because of statism regulation similar to old China & Russia.

hmmm.......you forgot, they also don't have a minumum wage I don't think.

[DanDaMan]

hmmm.......you forgot, they also don't have a minumum wage I don't think.

I did not forget it. I left it out on purpose.
I just recently read an article which stated something to the effect that because China is so unregulated their economy will always boom.
And I agree. Regulation, taxation and union style mentality is probably the biggest reasons companies move abroad.

[ninurta]

What also annoys me is the constant references to the slums people lived in because they were so poor being payed so little. Especially when they weren't forced to live outside their parents home. They could easily get a job and simply work together to improve their situation. It's called teamwork. The Mongols were constantly losing to the chinese until their tribes bunched up into one, then they made an empire bigger than any other in history, bigger by some degree to modern Russia (Not USSR I don't think).

My ancestors were in those sweatshops for meager wages, that never hurt them any.

[PBVBROOK]

My ancestors were in those sweatshops for meager wages, that never hurt them any.

Yea. Right. I'll bet they just loved it.

[Nandi]

There's no sane point in envying China's deregulation. Don't forget it results in acrid arial polution, riverine degradation and all-round unliveable conditions for any developed country with a demanding people. Working conditions are generally also quite appalling to us and substandard to any of our jobs.

[DanDaMan]

There's no sane point in envying China's deregulation. Don't forget it results in acrid arial polution, riverine degradation and all-round unliveable conditions for any developed country with a demanding people. Working conditions are generally also quite appalling to us and substandard to any of our jobs.

All true. But again...capitalism has and is bringing the masses out of poverty. They are building a foundation of consumerism that will eventually lead to a middle class that never existed there before!