Simple question for liberals - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
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By Jamin2112
#13407734
The notion that money spent by the government disappears down the proverbial black hole is, of course, just wrong. It is a view held by a lot of deeply stupid people but there is no truth in it.

By the way. The government is the source of all money.


Here is the breakdown of federal spending spending for 2009:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy200 ... egory2.png

Is the 21.05% in Social Security handouts going to create more wealth?

Is the 13.34% on Medicare?

Is the 11.77% on Unemployment/Welfare?

Is the 8.05% on national debt interest?

The little administrative things?

The answer to all of these is no! Certainly there is some justification for the 16.85% for defense; better to have an economy that is guarded from foreign nations and terrorists. But if you really think we're getting a return on the 1/3 of our nation's wealth that the government owns, you are a hopeless dolt. For an economy to grow, you need savings, investment, and risk; but not spending.
By TheRedMenace
#13407941
Jamin2112 wrote:Is the 21.05% in Social Security handouts going to create more wealth?

Is the 13.34% on Medicare?

Should old people just be killed instead? Should they just be starved to death and denied healthcare for greater "efficiency"?



Jamin2112 wrote:Is the 11.77% on Unemployment/Welfare?

I'm sure you have used unemployment at some time in your life. Do you really think it's useless? Would we have greater efficiency if redundant workers were just starved to death? No! The economy can't grow if there are no redundant workers and welfare programs keep these people alive and give them job skills that allow the economy to grow.
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By Aldaskar
#13408313
Let's start from a clean state here, about why, a liberal (and not a socialist, as so many who claim to be liberals are), believe that higher taxes on the rich are sometimes justifiable.

1. Government spending will almost always boost aggregate demand and promote economic growth in some way. Even if the government buys seemingly useful trinkets, someone has to make the trinkets, and they have to hire people, so government spending will create jobs and boost the economy.

2. Conservatives argue that government spending is less efficient than private spending, and that they would rather have individuals spending their money than the government. I believe this is a reasonable belief, and it is very much often true. After all, if the government buys useless trinkets with a million dollars, it will technically boost the economy, but that would be a form of malinvestment and we would suffer severe opportunity cost because an individual would have probably boosted the economy more if he had spent that one million dollars. Most of the times, this will manifest as pay-offs toward political supporters, inefficient central planning, or failed government programs. And when people see examples of this on television, it is very easy to come off with the conclusion that all government spending is wrong and undesirable. But I do not believe this belief is always true. Many times, individuals are simply not willing to spend their money at all, especially during economic busts, like our recent recession.

4. This is why I believe the government should spend money during economic downturns, in order to lessen how large they are. In a recession, even somewhat inefficient spending is preferable to no spending. However, the government cannot vastly increase the amount of revenue it collects in a short-period amount of time that quickly. Thus, in order to spend this money, we need to deficit spend. Often a lot, by cutting taxes and increasing spending.

5. However, we will need to pay off this debt eventually. We cannot merely spend our way out of every single recession, our debt will simply eventually drown us. That's why I believe during economic upswings, the government should collect higher amount of taxes, in order to help compensate for the large amounts of money spent in during the downturn.

6. Most taxes, especially taxes on the wealthy, are an automatic stabilizer, which in economics, is defined as a fiscal tool that the government uses that automatically raises aggregate demand during a recession, and lowers it during a economic upswing. The taxation base of richer Americans fluctuates with the economy much stronger than the taxation base of poorer Americans. In a recession, many wealthy Americans will see their incomes slashed greatly and their investments worth much less (typically, the richer you are, the more money you have in investments) Thus, the government collects much fewer taxes from the rich in a recession. The opposite is true in an economic upswing. Thus, with a progressive taxation system that taxes the rich more, taxation fluctuates more with the economy. Thus, higher taxes on the rich are a good way to accomplish fiscal policy because the difference in how much capital the government puts into the economy and how much it takes away from it will naturally be much higher in a recession than in an upswing.

7. Thus in the end, I believe that higher taxation on the wealthy is necessary toward the functioning of a strong and stable economy.

~~~

Edit: Unemployment benefits and welfare also represent a great automatic stabilizer. Instead of taxes, they are a form of spending that matches the economy. In an economic downturn, a lot more people will be collecting welfare and unemployment benefits, and in an economic upswing, a lot fewer people will be collecting them. Thus, it means the government will automatically spend more in a recession, and less in an economic boom. So I think they're very useful programs.

However, I do believe you are fairly correct with Social Security and Medicare. Both of them are relatively useless wastes of money, and will probably eventually wreck our nation's economy unless we slash them. Social Security is merely wealth redistribution, which even I, as a liberal, thinks is stupid. Medicare is even worse because most of the individuals it subsidizes will be subsidized long-term, and may actually GREATLY increase social costs by keeping chronically ill (and expensive to treat) low-economic performance individuals well... in a polite way, still treatable. But both programs are relatively popular among both conservatives and liberals (President Bush presided over one of the largest expansions of Medicare in history, the Medicare Modernization Act), so...yeah. Don't blame me. :p
By DanDaMan
#13408588
1. Government spending will almost always boost aggregate demand and promote economic growth in some way. Even if the government buys seemingly useful trinkets, someone has to make the trinkets, and they have to hire people, so government spending will create jobs and boost the economy.
Alda, as a Californian how is it California hasn't spent itself into more wealth instead of massive debt and needing a bailout?
And in what way will you entice the rich to stay so they can lose more and more income?
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By Aldaskar
#13409031
Alda, as a Californian how is it California hasn't spent itself into more wealth instead of massive debt and needing a bailout?
And in what way will you entice the rich to stay so they can lose more and more income?


California has been turned wealthy by endless amounts of government spending. It has. I don't see how that's arguable. The economic prospects are awful because a crushing morass of debt will eradicate almost all of that wealth. California is an embarrassment. But that's what I'm advocating. I never said that the government should continue to spend always and that government spending should be the main promoter of growth. I'm not a Socialist. Government spending should be used to correct for fluctuations in the economic cycle. "Lubricant" for the economic machine, so to say. But because the government is essentially a puppet for public sector unions, California ALWAYS spends, spends, and spends. And that's not what I, or most mainstream liberals, advocate. If you're looking for that, ask this question in the Socialist forum (or to the Californian government). Liberals, like me, want government spending to correct for economic fluctuations (usually by the maintenance of a safety net and moderately progressive taxation). Socialists, like the guys who run stuff where I live, want government spending to be the main driver of the economy. That's not what I believe at all.

Now, I believe the federal government does a better job of reacting to booms and busts than the state government, so I don't even believe in state income taxes, (I much prefer property taxes, sales taxes, and commodity taxes) Not to mention California's income tax is excessively progressive. I support a generally progressive federal income tax, but I'm not looking to drain the rich. It's easy to go overboard. California's taxes are ridiculously progressive, and yes, Californians are moving to other states. I will soon as well. But if top marginal rate for the income tax went up 3% today, do you think rich Americans will be moving to other countries? That's not happening.
By Wolfman
#13409148
California, since this apparently isn't enough of a well known fact, is one of the worlds largest economies.
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By Todd D.
#13409342
America is THE largest economy. Doesn't mean it's healthy or sustainable. "It's really big" is not an excuse for current plans or actions, nor is it a rebuttal to the argument that the economy itself is in trouble. That California is having a massive budget crisis that requires some incredibly hard decisions should be undebatable, regardless of how big the local economy is.
By PBVBROOK
#13410167
Alda wins the award for a very well thought out post and one that I believe is spot on.

Tell me Dandaman. As one who endlessly carps on "discriminative judgement" what exactly is a wealthy person. You wish to have them taxed lower so tell me what it is. If my wife and I earn, for example, $250K per year are we rich?

Suppose you support a flat tax as being more fair. Let's say 10%. Is the fact that I would pay $25K and a man who earns $25K would pay $2500 more fair? This would be taxing me 10 times more than the lower wage earner and I do not consume 10 times the services. I do not require 10 times the cops to protect me and besides I can hire private security if I want. Nor is my lifestyle 10X "better" than his. Now compare someone who earns 10 million a year with someone who earns 100 million a year. Can you say that the person who earns 10 million per year requires 10 times the services that the person who earns one million does? Is it ever fair to tax an American a million dollars a year?

I have heard the stupid arguement that the government "protects" the high wage earners additional money so they should pay more. This was disproven in spades in the recent crash. Many millionaires were wiped out and far more of those who earned $250K. Where was their so-called protection?

I served my country for 20 years and our hypothetical low wage person did not serve at all. Should I get a break for that? What if our low-wage worker has 10 kids. Should he get a break? Our low wage worker is a health care provider. He works as a patient care person in an old folks home. Is his wage fair?

So ruling out the flat tax as taxing the wealthy more than their fair share, tell me what a fair share is for all of us to be taxed?
(Here come the evasions and insults.) I find that so-called libertarians and conservatives rarely have an answer.
By DanDaMan
#13410178
Suppose you support a flat tax as being more fair. Let's say 10%. Is the fact that I would pay $25K and a man who earns $25K would pay $2500 more fair? This would be taxing me 10 times more than the lower wage earner and I do not consume 10 times the services. I do not require 10 times the cops to protect me and besides I can hire private security if I want. Nor is my lifestyle 10X "better" than his. Now compare someone who earns 10 million a year with someone who earns 100 million a year. Can you say that the person who earns 10 million per year requires 10 times the services that the person who earns one million does? Is it ever fair to tax an American a million dollars a year?
All true. But if you tax men equally on income you judge them equally. That's what blind justice does... sets a percentage and applies it to all equal men equally.

Tell us, in the context of this subject, who do you think should be in charge of judging one man better or worse than another?
By PBVBROOK
#13410229
OK DDM. Now answer the questions. Just like your hero Beck, you can't or won't. You are trolling again. Tell us what constitutes the rich and why. Then tell us what is a fair tax rate and why. Tell us again WHY one person should pay more than another person. Your own system taxes the wealthy much higher than the poor. You seem to oppose doing that. So stop trolling and answer these questions.

Do you know what I think? I think you won't because you are a troll and not at all interested in your subject. So if you are the real deal and want us to take you seriously don't ask me any more questions. Answer ours.

You won't. You don't have the answers. Trolls never do.
By DanDaMan
#13410241
Tell us what constitutes the rich and why.
One that has good health and family.


Then tell us what is a fair tax rate and why.
A fair tax is one that does not discriminate the rich from the poor.



Tell us again WHY one person should pay more than another person.
So that all men are treated equally by the law.
By PBVBROOK
#13410305
A fair tax is one that does not discriminate the rich from the poor.


So since a flat tax charges the rich more than the poor it is out. What tax do you prefer?

A fair tax is one that does not discriminate the rich from the poor.


So everyone should pay the same in your system. How much is that?

I asked: Tell us what constitutes the rich and why.
DDM REPLIED
One that has good health and family.


So a single orphan can never be rich? A person with diabetes can't be rich.
Use your "discriminatory judgement". You will see we are right.



We knew all you could do is troll. There is no substance behind your rhetoric. You are a good representative for the neo-conservative and libertarian movements. You perfectly represent their empty, sound-bite driven philosophy. It is sad. There once were wonderful conservative spokespeople. Men like William F. Buckley Jr. People of substance. Now who do you have? Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck. It is tragic. I honestly feel for the smart and educated conservatives on POFO who must wear them like a millstone around the neck.

You dodge these questions because you have no clue how to answer them. You know that you will be walking into a mine-field from which you can't escape. Why? Because your entire philosophy is flawed. I imagine that the growing realization that you have been decieved by those who you admire is very painfull. Never fear DDM. All the world loves a convert. Come over to our side. Join the progressive movement that has been steadily growing in influence since 1776. You are welcome amonst us. And you will be on the winning team.


Say DDM. Did you like the Bible verse? Did you learn something from it? I sincerely hope so. Spread it around.
By DanDaMan
#13410659
Quote:
A fair tax is one that does not discriminate the rich from the poor.


So since a flat tax charges the rich more than the poor it is out. What tax do you prefer?
You make some valid points about "usage" and all.
How about removing the income tax and implementing a national sales tax?
That would accomplish both of our positions, would it not?


So a single orphan can never be rich?
No. An orphan can grow up and create his own happy family. That's what the Pursuit of happiness means... the happenstance to create and use the good fortune before you.

A person with diabetes can't be rich.
They can be if they have the support of the family.


You say you are old but your posts lack any wisdom and understanding of life.
Are you sure your not one of these forum kiddies in moms basement?
By PBVBROOK
#13411009
How about removing the income tax and implementing a national sales tax?


You should oppose this because it "unfairly" taxes the fruits of one's labor.

No. An orphan can grow up and create his own happy family. That's what the Pursuit of happiness means... the happenstance to create and use the good fortune before you.


So a family is absolutely necessary for happiness? James Buchanan, Jr. who was wealthy, and became president could not have been happy because he never married? The Pursuit of Happiness spoken of by the founders refers to having a family? :roll:

You say you are old but your posts lack any wisdom and understanding of life.
Are you sure your not one of these forum kiddies in moms basement?


You just have to troll don't you son? You have no arguements so you resort to personal attack. Typical of neo-cons. :roll:
By DanDaMan
#13411111
How about removing the income tax and implementing a national sales tax?
You should oppose this because it "unfairly" taxes the fruits of one's labor.
Not necessarily. I may choose to save my money.

I also think it addresses your usage more equitably.
Do you like it?
By PBVBROOK
#13411644
Not necessarily. I may choose to save my money.


You may choose to save your money but earilier you complained of being denied the fruits of your labor. If you must pay taxes on what you buy, you will not be able to buy as much. Does that not deny you the fruits of your labor just as much as an income tax. A tax is a tax.

Also. The engine of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If you dry that up our economy will fail.

Nevertheless I favor a consumption tax based upon a balanced federal budget rather than an income tax. I favor projecting consumer spending and taxing at the rate that will fund the federal government and all of its programs. I favor a balance budget ammendment with limited exceptions.

If I were king I would do away with the income tax, impose value added taxes and a general sales tax. The only income tax I would impose is a modest capital gains tax. This would help to incourage spending and help to prevent a large idle rich class from developing.
By DanDaMan
#13411921
Nevertheless I favor a consumption tax based upon a balanced federal budget rather than an income tax. I favor projecting consumer spending and taxing at the rate that will fund the federal government and all of its programs.
And what do you think your tax percentage will be on all goods to all citizens in order to accomplish all the government programs?
And will you exempt certain special interest groups or give tax breaks and or refunds to them?
By Decky
#13412744
How can you possibly believe that our nation would benefit in the long run from taxing the rich to put more money in the hands of the government?


It depends what the government does with it. If it invades small midle easter nations with it, then not much. If it provides transport, healthcare, water, gas, electricity, food, housing and jobs for then it will do a hell of alot of good.
By KPres
#13415342
Also. The engine of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If you dry that up our economy will fail.


Just stop it. The "engine" of the economy is capital (aka savings). Thus the name....Capitalism. You can't run out of spending unless people all the sudden decide they don't want any more stuff (not likely, but if that ever did happen, then who the hell would care about the "engine" anymore?). Even all the Keynesian stuff is about problems from a slow response by the price mechanism. They're not saying spending "drives" the economy. That's ridiculous.

Nevertheless I favor a consumption tax based upon a balanced federal budget rather than an income tax. I favor projecting consumer spending and taxing at the rate that will fund the federal government and all of its programs. I favor a balance budget ammendment with limited exceptions.

How can you favor taxing consumption after you just said spending drives the economy? This is a contradiction.
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