[Rainbow Crow]

Decriminalisation and a strong network for getting off addiction will result in less drug addiction overall, which will result in less costs due to drugs, both for policing drug related crimes and for the costs of addiction therapy.

Long term savings.

Actual statistics coming from countries which legalized drugs and prostitution are showing these theories to be false. Usage of the undesirable things and the associated problems seem only to increase after legalization.

[Pants-of-dog]

Actual statistics coming from countries which legalized drugs and prostitution are showing these theories to be false. Usage of the undesirable things and the associated problems seem only to increase after legalization.

How does your unsourced chart support your argument?

[Beal]

How does your unsourced chart support your argument?

His chart was indeed sourced (UN World Drug Report). Furthermore, it looks like it was published in The Economist. As for how it supports his argument, no idea.

[Rei Murasame]

I'm also mystified by that argument, since while I actually agree with his assertion (that legalising something makes it happen even more), I don't see how his graph supports it.

That graph is a graph showing the price of cocaine, but cocaine isn't legal anywhere in the European Union.

[Pants-of-dog]

His chart was indeed sourced (UN World Drug Report). Furthermore, it looks like it was published in The Economist. As for how it supports his argument, no idea.

You are correct.

I should have said that I would like a link to the Economist article form where it supposedly came.

I found it using google images:

http://www.economist.com/node/21560270

I have no idea how it supports the claim, though.

[joyUnbounded]

So maybe a definition of Liberalism in a broader context is warranted. Ironically the Economist can help here -

http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/ ... eral-youth

[Soix]

Why is it ironic for one of the most liberal magazines in print (The Economist) to help provide a definition of liberalism?

[joyUnbounded]

I meant ironic in relation to the conversation in the thread. Just accept it.

[Rei Murasame]

Having just watched that video, is there any data showing how they arrived at the conclusion that British youth are becoming even more liberal? On gut instinct I feel almost like whatever poll they ran somehow forgot to sample:

• South Wales,
• The East Midlands,
• East Anglia,
• All of Scotland.

Because seriously, what the hell are they smoking to arrive at that conclusion?

[joyUnbounded]

Probably polenta.

[Rei Murasame]

I can only hope. If the UK becomes any more liberal I fear that it will soon become impossible to describe this thing as a country.

[joyUnbounded]

Can't say I am with you on that one. Happy to allow to become more liberal, the government smaller, attitudes laxer. But then again I am very laid back. And it works both ways, if people wish to be hyper conservative say then so be it. Not my place to judge really, is it.

[joyUnbounded]

I am embarrassed by the spelling mistakes in that post and the rather lackluster reply. I am seriously out of practice.

[Rainbow Crow]

If you legalize one drug it becomes harder to police other drugs since you can't search or do busts on evidence of the legal drug. The legal and illegal drugs still tend to be sold by the same people and in the same places. Thus the price of cocaine seems to have dropped in countries running legalization schemes because there is less danger associated with selling drugs.

Talk about gateway drugs right?

Since I am talking about warrants and s- though I will probably be told I don't know what I'm talking about!

[joyUnbounded]

I think the price has fallen because consumption of such drugs has fallen. Cheaper, easier drugs that are harder to police and frequently legal until their full effects and popularity become known. Law enforcement agencies and law makers can't keep up. Legalization has a tendency to actually reduce usage and negative effects. Legalization allows for regulation and control, eliminating a lot of ancillary negative effects from drugs cut with dangerous substances and so on. It simply makes sense to give people choice. We are already picking up the tab for drug use, control and regulation allows society to filter out a lot of crap and reduce the number of awful and cases. It just leaves a more visible hardcore that would have existed anyway.

[joyUnbounded]

I thought that this thread was about the nature of liberalism and liberals. How has it got onto drugs. It's always about drugs, so sad.

[Rainbow Crow]

It's just because my original argument used drugs as an example. Government gives drugs, then gives bottomless rehab. Without going into the whole dependency thing that Libertarians love to talk about, it's still the budgetary equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before starting a race. Or a better example might be a snake eating its own tail.

Data on domestic drug use in Portugal and the Netherlands is oddly mixed but "drug tourism," trafficking and the use of other associated drugs has undeniably risen in those countries.

[Pants-of-dog]

If you legalize one drug it becomes harder to police other drugs since you can't search or do busts on evidence of the legal drug. The legal and illegal drugs still tend to be sold by the same people and in the same places. Thus the price of cocaine seems to have dropped in countries running legalization schemes because there is less danger associated with selling drugs.

Talk about gateway drugs right?

Since I am talking about warrants and s- though I will probably be told I don't know what I'm talking about!

It's just because my original argument used drugs as an example. Government gives drugs, then gives bottomless rehab. Without going into the whole dependency thing that Libertarians love to talk about, it's still the budgetary equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot before starting a race. Or a better example might be a snake eating its own tail.

Data on domestic drug use in Portugal and the Netherlands is oddly mixed but "drug tourism," trafficking and the use of other associated drugs has undeniably risen in those countries.

All of the text in bold is verifiable claims.

Please provide evidence for both claims. Thank you.

[Eran]

The legal and illegal drugs still tend to be sold by the same people and in the same places.

You are confusing legalization with decriminalization, which still leaves a taint of illegitimacy on the drugs in question.

When the drugs are fully legalized, they are sold in drug stores and supermarkets, not at street corners.

Why wouldn't Marijuana be sold in exactly the same places and manner as tobacco products are today?

[Rainbow Crow]

Well POD, Portugal and the Netherlands have legalized more drugs than other countries and also have the lowest cocaine street price. You are basically suggesting to me that maybe it always had a low street price in those countries, but this is kind of a rabbit hole that I am not willing to go down today since I don't speak Portuguese or Dutch. If you want to look around for yourself though I am sure you will find something, such as the conflicting studies regarding Portuguese legalization.

@Eran, here's a story. In Japan, gambling is illegal. There are also gambling parlors everywhere, they are ubiquitous. How does that work if gambling is illegal? You see, when you win at gambling, they give you tokens. You use the tokens to buy a stuffed animal or something.

Then you take the stuffed animal down the street. There is always a store buying stuffed animals or whatever the prizes are near every Pachinko parlor. The store buys your stuffed animal. The store sells your stuffed animal back to the gambling parlor. Both are typically owned by the same Yakuza group which runs shell companies. The police and government don't bother to crack down because dumb people will gamble, but by officially banning gambling, the government does not become obligated to welfare you out of any gambling debts you incur. They even tax the Pachinko more. Japan is a smart country in that it doesn't to my knowledge create these money black holes with its policies.

I am sure that the people or places that sell hard drugs are physically near the people and places selling the "soft" and legalized drugs in Portugal and the Netherlands. I am sure they have their own systems in place to make enforcement and investigation more trouble than it's worth. I do not know the details but I've been around the world and worked as a public defender so I have a basic understanding of how this kind of dealing is done and hopefully you will take my word for it that it is not as simple as it appears on paper, where they say they will sell only cannabis and aren't getting paid to in some way facilitate the sale of cocaine to those same people who are likely in the market for both...