[PBVBROOK]

It is probably time for this liberal to move to the right. The situation on the left is becoming untenable.

In order for a liberal to ask the country to ‘progress’ we must be able to convince the majority of the people that our cause is just, our plan effective and our goals attainable. In the health care debate we have shown that we are not ready to do this. In fact we have shown the people that we can’t even get our act together enough to formulate a plan not to mention articulate it to the American people. So what is our problem?

There are some of my fellow progressives who would blame conservatives and the media. Is this why we are failing? Not really. It denies the facts.

Conservatives are, in the words of the centuries most articulate conservative, supposed to “stand athwart history and shout stop.” (Buckley) Why are we surprised when they do their job? So it must be the media, right? Well not really.

"According to a new survey [by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center], only 12 percent of local reporters, editors and media executives describe themselves as conservatives, while twice as many say they're liberal. At national news organizations, the gap is wider----7 percent conservative vs. 34 percent liberal."1 In reality the situation is even more unbalanced than those statistics indicate. In that Pew study, 54 percent of news people self-described themselves as "moderate," as neither liberal nor conservative.

Wow. You mean the media might be a bit liberal? According to the Federal Election Commission, of reportable campaign contributions from reporters 122 gave to democrats and 11 to republicans. (Who the two were that gave to both I can’t imagine.) So is it the conservative press? Nope. The conservative press is badly outnumbered.

Well it must be the Republicans who are standing in the way, right? Well. Not really. The democrats (if you consider them progressive) hold a majority in the House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and are led by a very popular president. With far less progressives accomplished far more in the past. Remember Social Security and Johnson's Great Society?

And we progressives can’t even articulate our ideas, not to mention enact them into law. Clearly we are not ready to lead.

So it is time for me to move a bit to the right and I would encourage other liberals to do so also. If we are not able to even formulate our agenda and articulate it to the American people we should have the integrity to stand aside and wait until we can. We should strive for a good program and have the moral courage to reject the morally bankrupt position that a flawed plan is better than no plan at all. Clearly we are not ready to take the helm of state. Our leaders can’t (or won’t) lead, our ideas are confused and our vital moral compass is way off course.

Conservatives serve an important purpose in the politics of every country. They stand to prevent just what we are facing now; a progressive movement that lacks a viable plan but wishes to forge ahead anyway. That they employ tactics that anger us in their opposition is just politics as usual. At least in the health care debate it is not the conservatives who are impeding progress. It is we progressives who have offered no real path to follow and who refuse to take the point.

In the immortal words of Pogo, "We have met the enemy and it is us."

[Zyx]

This is nonsense, "we" are not the government, so condemning us through the government is misdirected. Furthermore, why would one abandon one's ideas for the sake of impostures to one's ideas? If anything, one goes more left, not more right.

This thread be nonsense.

[PBVBROOK]

But we ARE the government. That is the essense of our system.

I don't disagree that one could choose to move further to the left but what is over there? Socialism? Communism? An old fashioned American liberal would not go there.

The point of the move to the right is to accept that until we are ready to lead, have a plan, and can sell it to the American people we should not push for change. And accepting the status quo for the time being is a move to the right. I am not getting an Ann Coulter Tshirt but I certainly should not push for a progressive plan until there is one.

I have articulated many progressive ideas on this forum and elsewhere but can find little support for them and particularly not in the democratic party. So for the time being I think I should support putting the brakes on for awhile until there is something concrete to be 'for'.

Zyx. Can you really sign up for the Democratic party agenda?

Please consider this. To reject the current Democratic party health care plan (such as it is) IS the progressive thing to do. To sit mute rather than supprt Obamas desire to extend the Patriot Act IS the progressive thing to do.

I'll tell you what. You show me a good progressive bill in congress and I will get busy and support it. I don't think you can though.

[Zyx]

Look how long ago I stopped following/supporting the government. PBVBROOK, consider class, I'll write you a late pass.

Liberalism never floated as a ship.

[Cartertonian]

Don't worry. PBVBROOK, a move to the right for an American Liberal will still leave you left-of-centre on the UK political spectrum.

[Goldberk]

Wow. You mean the media might be a bit liberal? According to the Federal Election Commission, of reportable campaign contributions from reporters 122 gave to democrats and 11 to republicans.

the press can support the democrats and be right wing if you consider the democrats to be right wing.

[PBVBROOK]

Liberalism never floated as a ship.

That is because American liberalism is not an established belief system but rather a willingness to consider and embrace change. It is defined by issues that are constantly changing. 50 years after the liberal succeeds the issues are no longer considered liberal but rather move to the rhelm of the conservative.

Don't worry. PBVBROOK, a move to the right for an American Liberal will still leave you left-of-centre on the UK political spectrum.

Very true. I am visiting the UK in march for an event in Portsmouth. I am considering overstaying my welcome.

the press can support the democrats and be right wing if you consider the democrats to be right wing.

And in fact I do.

[Icon]

I'm really not following this at all. Exactly what are you kvetching about?

[Potemkin]

I'm really not following this at all. Exactly what are you kvetching about?

He's an American liberal. They're always kvetching about something.

[PBVBROOK]

He's an American liberal. They're always kvetching about something.

Well that was completely unfair. But if you choose here is the crux if the issue. I said:

In order for a liberal to ask the country to ‘progress’ we must be able to convince the majority of the people that our cause is just, our plan effective and our goals attainable. In the health care debate we have shown that we are not ready to do this. In fact we have shown the people that we can’t even get our act together enough to formulate a plan not to mention articulate it to the American people.

Is that kvetching? Or is it simply stating that if the status-quo is the conservative position then we liberals have failed to understand that it is our responsibility to show them that it is in the interest of the country to move at all. Looking at the health care debate it is clear that the left is failing to do that. (And neither are the democrats.)

So in the absence of a clear liberal agenda it is smart to support the status quo.

This is not bitching. It is a statement of fact. There is no "liberal" position in the US right now that has any political traction. We are not telling our story.

[Paradigm]

*raises hand*

Um...I've got a few ideas for our country. The banks won't like it, though.

[Icon]

Is that kvetching? Or is it simply stating that if the status-quo is the conservative position then we liberals have failed to understand that it is our responsibility to show them that it is in the interest of the country to move at all. Looking at the health care debate it is clear that the left is failing to do that. (And neither are the democrats.)

No amount of reason will convince the teabaggers or the Republicans in Congress whose re-election campaigns depend on donations from the health insurance industry.

Regarding the teabaggers, people who are not capable of logical thought cannot be convinced of anything. They lack the basic intellectual capability to be convinceable.

As for the legislators, their political self interest forces them to do what many probably know in their hearts is wrong for the country. But they're self-interested politicians, so what do they care?

So in the absence of a clear liberal agenda it is smart to support the status quo.

The status quo on health care is logically untenable, financially unsustainable, economically inefficient and politically insane.

There is a clear liberal agenda--Single payer health care. The fact that Democrats on the Hill are not pursuing it has more to do with the political realities of how Washington works than anything else. The alternative of that is the exchange idea with a public option; a viable alternative. But to be perfectly frank, that won't pass the Senate. There aren't 60 votes for it with some democratic moderates in opposition and at least 39 Republicans lined up to vote no on anything and everything.

There's never going to be a 'clear liberal agenda' because the definition of 'liberal' is void of meaning. There is a clear conservative agenda though--Do nothing. Ever. But that is why true conservatives have never solved any perceived social problems.

[ninurta]

Why are you moving to the right? Do we have better ideas than the left?

You shouldn't just change unless you believe it is really the right thing to do, don't just let us pressure you into change, we like debates.

[PBVBROOK]

Why are you moving to the right? Do we have better ideas than the left?

I am the left. We have better ideas than what is proposed. So do many moderate liberals. (you know who you are;)

You shouldn't just change unless you believe it is really the right thing to do, don't just let us pressure you into change, we like debates.

Trust me. My shouting 'stop' has nothing to do with ideas proposed by those on the right. It is rather a nod to the role of the conservative which is to slow down out of control liberals. The problem is that now we have a situation where a conservative party (the democrats) are proposing a program that is unacceptable to another conservative party (the republicans). The left doesn't have a dog in the fight.

The status quo on health care is logically untenable, financially unsustainable, economically inefficient and politically insane.

Very true. And there is no evidence of which I am aware that indicates that the democratic proposal solves these problems.

[Icon]

Very true. And there is no evidence of which I am aware that indicates that the democratic proposal solves these problems.

What the House Democrats are proposing isn't that far off from what they have in Germany. Seems to be working OK there.

[NoRapture]

According to the Federal Election Commission, of reportable campaign contributions from reporters 122 gave to democrats and 11 to republicans.

So, as a liberal, PBV, you don't trust other liberals to deliver the facts and information that accompany current events? Maybe it's true. All journalists need to take a vow of political celibacy before they can be trusted. Because everybody knows that having political views makes you a liar. Right? Oh, I forgot, you're moving to the right today? So now you tend to trust the right-wing noooze a little more than the left-wing noooze?

Funny though, both the right-wing noooze and the left-wing noooze reported convincingly about the WMD in Iraq. And the noooze about those wonderful free elections? That was delivered by both sides. FOXNOOOZE and CNN. And I know you're a Noooze expert.

[PBVBROOK]

NR. You made no point. Try and make a point if you are going to waste my time.

While you are at it NR, read my post. What you posted has nothing to do with it.

You are a very angry person. You are attacking a liberal for his liberal views. You are being ineffective. You are wasting your time. You are acting counter to your position. None of these are very smart tactics to employ.

[NoRapture]

You are a very angry person.

You are attacking...

You are being ineffective.

You are wasting your time.

You are acting...

Yes, PBV, and my favorite color is green. I have a Cocker Spaniel. I love Italian food and SciFi movies. And I'm a Gemini. You are a liberal. Is that right? And you work in the Noooze industry?

[NoRapture]

Yes, Dragons. Of course almost all of what you quoted of mine was either posed as a question or a rhetorical, uncapitalized "you". If you go back and read the Nooozeman's post it's almost all about little old me. And very short. Kind of disingenuous of you, don't you think?

[Nandi]

I'm baffled that you don't link your conclusion to the deeprooted structural problems of the US political system. To me it's incredibly obvious that, more than the lack of progressive cohesion and innovation, it's the cause of the current liberal ineffectiveness.