[Potemkin]

I am not angered, S_C, merely mildly amused.

[Decky]

Cuba needs to get some submarines. A few torpedoes would reduce the number of runners in the long term.

[Social_Critic]

If you are mildly amused then don't write I'm trolling you. This implies you are angered but controlling it. I don't have any respect whatsoever for the idea that Fidel Castro is anything but a son of a whore and I indeed would put his corpse in a vulture feeder,. I hate him with a deep, solid, pervasive hate for what he did after January 1 1959. And this has nothing to do with trolling. Anybody who behaves as this man has done earns hatred. And this of course doesn't mean I hate his foreign sandalista groupies, most of whom think reading a couple of books and having a seance with Danny Glover is good enough to know what goes on.

[Potemkin]

If you are mildly amused then don't write I'm trolling you. This implies you are angered but controlling it.

I am always angered but controlling it, S_C. This is my default state of mind. However, I am not especially angered towards you in particular. In fact, my inner turmoil is overlaid by mild amusement right now.

[Social_Critic]

That's good. I don't really intend to troll. I hope you do realize I did live in Cuba and Venezuela, and I saw things really close up. I just can't say everything I know or give more details because it does put people in danger. So this issue hits close, it's not theory. And i think it's a real pity to see how the world is so full of people who are willing to ignore human rights abuses for their cause.

When you see what happens and the aftermath, it's just not worth it. I keep telling you guys about Lourdes Afiuni, and all of you sidestep the issue. I sure hope someday you don't find a close relative getting raped in jail by a regime like Chavez'. Especially when it's done on the whim of a cruel and really disturbed individual like Chavez was.

[Sithsaber]

I know people in prison who got raped all the time. Especially the politicized ones.

[Social_Critic]

I'm sure you do. But I'd like to see a woman judge who was jailed without cause and raped. And who is still kept in detention after the UN human rights committee and just about all human rights NGOs call for her release.

What really needs to sink into that thick skull of yours is that this is such a gross miscarriage of justice and such a crime that under normal circumstances mr Chavez would have been indicted at put on an arrest list as a criminal. The problem, as we know, is that politics trumps and war crimes, crimes against humanity and all sorts of bad shit happens and nobody does anything. In this case the brazilians, Russians and Chinese provide cover because they think they'll get cash out of it. Money talks, that's all.

[Gletkin]

Returning to the OP I don't think the Batista regime is really meaningful in a debate about Fidel Castro's behavior.

Yes and no. After all, Castro did rise to power as an anti-Batista rebel.
If one can prove that Batista was not worse...or that he was even better than Castro, that'd be quite an indictment of Castro's governorship.

[Social_Critic]

Gletkin, that logic is flawed. It assumes revolution is linked or hard wired to human rights abuses.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that Batista was like Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. That is, a monstrous psychopath who committed numerous unspeakable crimes. This doesn't necessarily mean those who overthrew him were justified when they installed a dictatorship which went on to commit human rights abuses for over 50 years.

If this point doesn't come across - and many of you can't or refuse to understand it, then we live on different ethical universes. I don't give a shit about what happened before, and I don't buy excuses. I don't give a damn about what happens in the USA, Singapore or Kiribati. I have a simpler standard, rulers should be held responsible when they do harm if they had options not to do harm.

And I have a much better vantage point than you do as a group, I was there, I happened to be on Castro's side, and I saw him turn into a monster. He chose to abuse people, he allowed Che to do terrible things, and he ordered torture and murder...........And this has gone on and on and on for over 50 years.

Fidel Castro and his top echelon, including a very close relative of mine, are fit for jail and/or a wood chipper.

[Gletkin]

Gletkin, that logic is flawed. It assumes revolution is linked or hard wired to human rights abuses.

I didn't say anything about "hard-wired to human rights abuses".
What I said was that rebels/revolutionaries frequently promise to be better alternatives than the incumbents they overthrow. Certainly those rebels who appeal for popular support.
Coups by their elitist nature are the one form of rebellion that perhaps doesn't require popular support. Especially if there's no ideological difference (as is often the case with coups). Often it's just one clique overthrowing another of the same politics. Many coups have occurred with the masses just ignoring it if they weren't anywhere near the action and just going on with their lives.

If this point doesn't come across - and many of you can't or refuse to understand it, then we live on different ethical universes. I don't give a shit about what happened before, and I don't buy excuses. I don't give a damn about what happens in the USA, Singapore or Kiribati. I have a simpler standard, rulers should be held responsible when they do harm if they had options not to do harm.

That's been an issue wrestled with by every revolution regardless of ideology.
Very very often though....more the rule than the exception....the proverbial eggs were broken to make the proverbial omelet. Especially if the rebellion was in the form of a protracted war. More lives were lost to the American War of Independence than ever was to British colonial "tyranny".
That's just an objective observation, however some people may wish it was otherwise.

One can take a hardline and denounce Castro even if he is better than Batista. But the reality is that not everyone takes this line and that since Castro took power as an anti-Batista rebel, it's inevitable that someone will assert the "Batista was worse" argument.

Political divisions are frequently present in every rebellion. I'm certain anti-Castro Cubans are no exception to this. Sometimes it's just the same old story of personal rivalry and ambition cloaked in politics. But I'm sure for many it's genuine ideological disagreement. Opposing Castroite Communism can only unify people so far. Questions of not only what to replace Castroism with but how to it is are things that have exacerbated relations between some anti-Castro Cubans I'm sure.

Fidel Castro and his top echelon, including a very close relative of mine, are fit for jail and/or a wood chipper.

See? There you go.
Someone else with perhaps more...I don't know Gandhian pacifist leanings or something...might denounce you for wanting to kill Castro and his clique.
They'd be complaining about how you are living in a "different ethical universe". About how the death penalty has no place in a post-Castro Cuba..or any "decent" society because "rulers should be held responsible when they do harm if they had options not to do harm" and executing people, even convicted murderers, violates that responsibility (in their opinion).
See? What's good enough for others isn't good enough for you. In turn, what's good enough for you isn't good enough for still others.

[Sandokan]

An extraordinary example of Cuban balsero inventiveness can be seen in Miami, at the corner of 8th and 42. The original craft was sunk by the Coast Guard, so Chevrolet contracted the man who made the original to make this replica, shown below.

[Sandokan]

Cuba won't allow refugee’s son to come to Canada
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundl ... e-829.html

CBC News


Yadier Perez Leon wants his son to join him in Canada. (Facebook)

While many Canadians' image of Cuba includes sandy beaches and tropical drinks, one St. John's resident paints a very different picture.

Yadier Perez Leon arrived two years ago after escaping his native Cuba by boat. It was a harrowing journey, during which the craft ran out of gas, leaving them stranded on an island for two weeks.

They eventually landed in Florida, after being discovered by the US Coast Guard. After months of bureaucratic processing, Canadian officials approved him as a refugee in February.

Now Leon wants his 5 year-old son to join him.

As a refugee, he has one year to bring relatives to Canada. But Cuban officials are making it tough. Despite repeated dealings with the consul in Montreal, the government there won't allow the boy to leave.

Leon says their resistance stems from a long-standing grudge.

During the communist revolution led by Fidel Castro in 1959, people had their property taken away. Leon's grandfather owned a large farm and a lot of livestock, all of which was seized. His family continued to express disagreement about this over the years.

According to Leon, the Cuban government can make life difficult for those who show dissent.
Several years ago, the island nation was struck by a hurricane. While other residents received government assistance to rebuild, his mother did not. Leon was incapacitated at the time, following a bad motorcycle accident, and was unable to help.

Discouraged and bedridden, it was then that he made the decision to leave.

"I say, 'Okay, Yadier, you need to get out (of) the bed, make yourself strong,'" said Leon, who is now learning to speak English in St. John's. "You need (to) go outside this country because you don't have too much time in the life. In this country, you don't have any opportunity."

Now Leon wants the same opportunity for his son.

"This boy, my little son need me, the only father he have," said Leon, whose wife died only two days after giving birth to their child. "And I need him."

He hopes getting the word out will help resolve the situation.

"Please, call everyone in the world, everyone in this country," said Leon. "Everyone hear this situation, help me for my son stay with me as soon as possible."

The Castroit tyrannical military regime is preventing a five years old boy from reunited with his father. Let's wait for the international outrage and the constant media coverage of this story. Unlike the case of Elian, this one will be ignored.

[Kman]

Cuba needs to get some submarines. A few torpedoes would reduce the number of runners in the long term.

What a sick and twisted mind set, these people have a right to escape from you lunatic commies, you dont own these people, they are not your slaves.

[layman]

That gren Chevrolet boat is actually pretty awesome.

[Sithsaber]

Stalinists aren't to be taken seriously. Next topic.

[Quantum]

I always found it mindblowing that the supposed ''good guys'' IE the americans, would simply send these poor and desperate people back to the hell hole they came from, knowing full well the punishment that awaited them for trying to escape from the heaven of communism, you have to be one cold hearted bastard to look these people in the eye and go ''Sorry, your going back to Mister Castro and his secret police because we dont want to compete with dirty cubans on the american labor market''.

No sane country would allow people to just come onto their shores, thus handing them back is reasonable and not hypocritical.

[Kman]

No sane country would allow people to just come onto their shores, thus handing them back is reasonable and not hypocritical.

I would say that greatly depends on the country they come from and how they will be treated on return, sending someone back to certain death is highly immoral, it is no different than not calling a doctor if someone is having a heartattack or some other similar kind of medical issue.

Do you think for example that it was ok for the US to turn back all the jews who then ended up being killed by the Nazis? Is your fear of labor competition really that great that you would send people back to a concentration camp?

Much of the problems with immigration are caused by the government welfare state anyway, without a welfare state you could have totally open immigration with no issues since it would be impossible for immigrants to exploit the native population in any way. Just today I walked past a large african family and I honestly got a little angry because I knew none of them would ever work a day in their lives while I am starting work tomorrow again and I dont really enjoy it. They were smiling and having a gay old time, I personally would not give a dime to lazy people like those but I am forced to by my shitty danish government, the issue here is government enforced welfare payments, not immigration as such, a people can control immigration if they control welfare, it will naturally chase off any moochers.

[Social_Critic]

First, the revolution to overthrow Batista lasted about two- three years.

Second, I never said they should be put in a wood chipper alive. I have said they should be jailed, put on trial and convicted. Then executed. And then their corpses can be put in a wood chipper. Given their tendency to have medieval ideas about embalming and making demigods out of their leaders' cadavers, I think a medieval solution is in order.

Returning to my point, nothing you argue really gets traction with me. I don't give a shit about excuses. After 50 years, enough is enough. I will not forgive their abuses, because this would be contrary to the public good. In cases like this, where criminals commit crimes continuously for many years, then justice is required to try to teach those who may wish to repeat these crimes. The least we can do is make their lives uncomfortable, because they know that if they don't die first then they will be put on trial and executed.

[Social_Critic]

When I left Cuba I used to have a recurring nightmare. It went on for about 20 years. It was so bad I would muffle scream like ugh ugh ugh. The dream was always the same. First I'd dream I was leaving by boat, and I made it easy. Then I found myself back in Cuba, and I'd be telling the story of my escape. Then this guy I knew from school would ask me "sure, but why did you let them bring you back? " then the horror would start, when I realized I was trapped back there all over again. And I would wake up screaming.

[Decky]

So a father abandons his son and the state don't want to send the poor kid into the arms of his negligent father?

Sounds about right to me.