[naked_turk]

What, and you can read Arabic, efrem?

[Efrem Da King]

No but I know people who do.



Note of interest in that poll.
36% for arresting individuals conducting violent attacks on Israelis
25% for cutting off funding for groups engaged in terror and violence against Israelis


Now that shows the mindset. They want peace but they don't want to stop killing jews, guess they can't have it both ways can they?

[naked_turk]

No but I know people who do.

Hows that relevant? I also know people that speak Arabic... and in no way does that help me get an exact word for word translation of Arab leaders' speeches. You know what I think? I think you pulled the comment about Arafat's speeches - pardon my wording - out of your ass.

[ihavenoname]

actually no- he didnt- there are translations of Arafats arabic speeches online. (use a search engine- I'm too lazy to quote right now). I particularly like how in his english speeches he calls for peace and denies inciting the people- and in his arabic speeched he calls for Jihad- mostly on the same day of both speeches. Rikimaru.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Arafat: "On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."

Source: Arafat speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, in Arabic, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT.

Abd-al-Rahman: "The Palestinian leadership strongly denounces the Netanya operation against Israeli civilians, particularly because it was carried out today, during the Passover and when General Zinni is continuing his mission to bring about a cease-fire."

Source: PA's Abd-al-Rahman Criticizes Netanya Bombing, Ramallah Voice of Palestine, in Arabic, on 28 March 2002, at14:00 GMT.

Arafat: "Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."

Source: Speech by Yasir Arafat, PA president and PLO chairman on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah, Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT.

From the Guardian:

The Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, made a televised address in Arabic to the Palestinian people last night. Here is a translation of his words

Thursday May 9, 2002

As the president of the Palestinian Liberation Organization and the president of the Palestinian Authority, I repeat here my full commitment and my readiness to participate with the US administration and the international community in their war against terrorism.
I gave my orders and directions to all the Palestinian security forces to confront and prevent all terror attacks against Israeli civilians from any Palestinian side or parties and at the same time to confront any aggression or attack on Palestinian civilians, whether by Israeli soldiers or settlers, which we all condemn.

I call on the US government, President Bush and the international community to provide the support and needed immunity for the Palestinian security forces, whose infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israeli occupation, so that they can carry out and implement their orders and their missions and duties to completely stop any terror attempt targeting Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians and to prevent using terror as a political way to achieve their goals.

I call and insist on the importance of sending international forces immediately to help us stop the aggression and impose peace and security.

I just read Arafat's Nakba Day speech, delivered on June 3, and it is quite brilliant and inspirational. It is a little lengthy, so I will just provide the link:
http://www.memri.de/uebersetzungen_anal ... _06_03.pdf

Some thing worth pointing out:

"Our Palestinian people had to choose between two paths: between disappearing and being eradicated, and steadfastness, conflict, and adherence to our right over our eternal homeland Palestine. Our Palestinian people, a people of bravery, did not hesitate to choose the path of standing at the front of the battle for the land, at the front of the battle blessed by Allah, the first direction of prayer and the third most holy place, the place Muhammad reached during his night journey, and the place of Jesus' birth." "Our people [do] not accept humiliation, contempt, submission, obedience, enslavement, and imperialism in the places holy to Christianity and Islam... because it is a believing and noble people and in its blood flows the blood of faith and honor, love of the homeland and love of the nation [that increase] as the conspiracy expands." "Palestine is our homeland, the land of the battlefront and the holy land, our homeland and the homeland of our fathers and grandfathers, the homeland of our grandchildren and of the generations to come. Palestine is our homeland. It has no substitute, and we have no other homeland. Every Palestinian refugee looks forward to the day when he will embrace the homeland and restore its identity and the honor of the citizen in his homeland Palestine."

and reafirming his commitment to coexistence:

"We have declared in the past that the option of peace, the peace of the brave, which we signed with our partner Yitzhak Rabin of blessed memory, is our strategic option. But despotic power and enormous conspiracy rejected and are still rejecting our option for the sake of a just, eternal, and comprehensive peace in Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon and in the entire region in accordance with international legitimacy and its resolutions: 242, 338, 425, 194, 1397, and other resolutions and agreements, the most recent of which is the road map." "Whoever thinks that a false peace can deceive our people is hallucinating. There will be no peace without a full Israeli withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories, to the June4 line [1967]. Likewise, the illegal settlements, which plunder our land, our nation, and our freedom, must cease to exist. The settlers must leave our Palestinian land. Peace cannot come about and security cannot be maintained in the shadow of the occupation and the settlements." "We support a just, eternal, and comprehensive peace, a peace of the brave in exchange for a full withdrawal from our Palestinian and Arab land. This is the principle approved by the Arabs according to the initiative of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. This is the basis for the principle of the Madrid peace conference, the Washington [conference], and the Cairo [conference], and the Sharm Al-Sheikh, Taba, Wye River and Paris [conferences], and other [conferences]. [This principle is] land for peace."

Arafat went against the wishes of most Palestinian activists when he signed the Madrid agreement (laying claim to only 22% of Palestinine), and the Oslo accord. He wears an emblem of the Israeli flag on his jacket, and has continually affirmed Israel's right to exist.

[naked_turk]

actually no- he didnt- there are translations of Arafats arabic speeches online. (use a search engine- I'm too lazy to quote right now). I particularly like how in his english speeches he calls for peace and denies inciting the people- and in his arabic speeched he calls for Jihad- mostly on the same day of both speeches. Rikimaru.

The very fact that he said "I know people who speak arabic" when I asked him how he knows what Arafat is saying proved my thought that he pulled the comment out of his ass. If he had replied with "you can find translations online" maybe then it wouldnt make his Arafat speeches point a pulled-straight-out-of-the-ass-type comment, but simply an untrue comment.

... and Gandalf, thanks for proving efrem and noname wrong for me

[ihavenoname]

Arafat himself Calling for Jihad in arabic: (translated)

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?P ... ID=SP29301


The PA (which arafat controls) calling for Jihad in arabic: (translated)

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?P ... ID=SP26101

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?P ... ID=SP25201

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?P ... ID=SP37002

[GandalfTheGrey]

Is that the best you can come up with? I fully support Arafat's call for a jihad - a word that has been grossly misinterpreted. The Palestinian territories are under a brutal military occupation, and Arafat's call for resistance to that occupation is consistent with the Koran, and consistent with the United Nations charter. What sort of leader would Arafat be if he said "I know its rough, but we will just have to learn to live under Israeli oppression"? At no stage does Arafat call for suicide attacks, nor does he command his people to drive the jews into the sea. That is a phrase I have heard so many people attribute to Arafat. If you don't produce evidence of him saying this after 1988 (after which he agreed to the principle of a two state solution), then I will have to start believing that he never actually said it.

Previously I was unsure about Arafat, I have heard so many bad stories about him. But you guys are starting to make me a believer in him. I am open to persuasion, but you will have to give me some more convincing evidence. There are that many people who claim that he incites terrorism, surely there must be some basis for this? Or is it just a matter of misinterpreting his speeches such as the one ihavenoname referred me too? I used to accept the standard line that the Palestinian cause was good, but Arafat was bad, but now I'm not so sure. We all know for a fact that Arafat has condemned terrorism, and supported Israel in both English and Arabic, now I want to see if there is another side to it. I issue a challenge to you people: give me some evidence that has not been twisted or misinterpreted by Arafat's enemies.

[naked_turk]

Jahàd: A struggle.

1.Usually interpreted as a "Holy Struggle." A struggle for anything that is just, and/or a struggle for one to better him/her self.

2. Sometimes also a defensive military struggle of the just. If attacked, an obligation to defend oneself from the agressors.

Jahàd has nothing to do with attacking and killing civillians. Killing civillians is without exception against Islamic Law, known as the Sharià.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Thanks naked_turk, its time these little myths are put to rest. People see the word "Jihad" and they reel in horror. Arafat said the J word, so he is automatically a terrorist.

Sometimes also a defensive military struggle of the just. If attacked, an obligation to defend oneself from the agressors.

And the Palestinians are most definitely fighting a defensive war. Arafat has consistently voiced his support for Oslo and a peaceful agreement, but Israel (starting with Netanyahu) responded by more incursions and more settlements. What choice does Arafat have? They are under attack, so, he has a right, as specified in the UN charter, to defend himself. Hence the call to jihad.

So please, stop this little game of associating jihad with terrorism. Bin Laden may have misused the word, but most muslims understand its proper meaning, including the people who talk about jihad in Palestine.

[Efrem Da King]

No arafat sent people to purposly target israeli citizens in an attempt to make them feal terror and give in the his demands, that is why he is a terrorist, that he used the j word makes him a religious fanatic. You can never trust a religious fanatic, that goes for religious fanatics of ALL RELIGIONS.

[naked_turk]

No arafat sent people to purposly target israeli citizens in an attempt to make them feal terror and give in the his demands, that is why he is a terrorist, that he used the j word makes him a religious fanatic. You can never trust a religious fanatic, that goes for religious fanatics of ALL RELIGIONS.

Where is your proof he sends out terrorist?? Everytime I check hes either busy being detained in his compound by the IDF or hes condemning terrorism!

Arafat a religious fanatic? Because he uses a common Arabic word in his speeches? So if an Englishman or an American says "struggle" he should be classified as a religious fanatic?

And about the "j word"... me and Gandalf spent alot of valuable time trying to explain to the lesser-informed what this "j word" meant... I guess we wasted our time.

[GandalfTheGrey]

You know Efrem, I really was hoping that you would take the hint from SF and contribute something constructive. Your post is more than one line, that is a start, but now you have to work on making them constructive.

As I said before, the right to defend your own land against occupation is stated in both the Koran and the UN charter. So I guess that makes all muslims "religious fanatics", as well as those people who abide by international law.

[ihavenoname]

regardless how efram responds to your posts- the Issue itself is merely an interpetation. Hamas and IJ etc claim jihad on ALL of israel. Is tel aviv occupied?
Arafat is a terrorist. We will be discussing this soon.

[Hollywood_jew]

Hamas' own mission statement says that Jews and other infidels will be tolerated in a their Muslim nation ...

So what you have is a Muslim version of Isreal ... thats all ...

A Jewish state that tolerates non-Jews.

A Muslim state that tolerated infidels (non-Muslims).

Whats teh difference? Either way both nations are guided by the teaching of a cult, a mythological belief ...

I think a state should exist that is neither Jewish or Muslim and it should be policed by international forces as neither the Jews nor the Muslims are capable of doing it themselves.

The world is at fault for allowing the slaughter to continue while blaming both the Jews and Muslims who are just not capable of living in peace under their own terms.

The truth hurts I know, but it's the Muslims who are singlehandely responsible for 100% of the terror in the middle east. And most of the terror in America. To quote terrorists like "hamas" is like quoting Hitler who claims that the "trains" are taking you to a summer camp. (yes, he said it)

Hamas has made murdering Jews a state of the art function. They have parades, recruit murderers, pay off the families of murderers and search constantly for better ways to murder more jews.

[Sleepy]

To make a long story short.... No.

Then you support his/Likud's position? No Palestinian state, no soverignty, no
anything that could stop the violence?

First the terror has to stop.

What about Israels terror? You think it should stop as well? I think that's the only way to get this back under control.

Then lifting of restrictions. Then palestinian state. And the terror won't stop while yasser is at the head.

Yasser ain't the one behind the terror. Besides I doubt he could stop it if he wanted to. I see another Rabin-like incident if he tries to crack down on terrorists before the Pals have some improvments made to there lives.

You really outa read his arabic announcments as well as his english ones, the difference is incredible.

You really should provide some.

[ihavenoname]

Ahem.. Cough Cough...

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2423

[Efrem Da King]

Thanks I was looking for that thread, it funny how they ask for things we've already given em.