[Kaspar]

Oops, I mean 'socialist', I'm sorry!! (Like there's a big fucking difference anyways when were talking about corrupt African regimes)

I have no idea what you are even trying to say by this. socialism and communism are the same thing in African governments? What? This isn't particularly coherent.

And the ANC isn't even socialist, it's more free-market, capitalist, liberal, etc. than anything. But we've already had this discussion and I don't really want to repeat myself.

but we both know that 86% of South Africa's population are not literate to the same standards as Western countries (Kenya probably isn't as well). That means that only 14% of SA is 'illiterate'?

And what does this have to do with your opinion that Kenya has a greater literacy rate than South Africa? ...which was what I was trying to disprove in that point.

[flickerstorm]

Continuing on with the discussion. I think we lack a few more pictures of the ruins of the various civilisations. I am no expert by any means on African civilisation, but I can post about the ruins that I do know of.

This is Gedi, a ghost town near the Kenyan coast. It is one of the 50 Swahili towns I mentioned before.
http://www.kenya-advisor.com/images/ged ... 817342.jpg
http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3544258 ... alindi.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/31/46238 ... 1122_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/402 ... f771_b.jpg
http://www.vhinkle.com/africa/kilwa-mosque.jpg

Kilwa tanzania, another one of the towns
http://www.wmf.org/images/TANKilwa2007f ... holmes.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/3356030916/
http://www.mikadibeach.com/wp-content/u ... osque1.jpg

Husuni kubwa, the royal palace in Kilwa
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XBoa9r8oZMg/R1wo6 ... ge0022.JPG
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/3367624384/ (this was the octagonal pool)


I will post more pics when I have the time.

[politburo player]

Sudanese pyramids were only about the size of a house.



Compared to...

Aztec pyramids:


Mayan pyramids:


Egyptian pyramids:

[Godstud]

Education on Africa, as mentioned earlier, is lacking. Aside from the Eqyptians, most people know amazingly little(myself included) about the great African civilizations.

It's easy to build stereotypes and such when you are very ignorant of the facts.

The reason for small Sudanese pyramids was because they were into making family sized pyramids and knew that making the big ones were really just being overly ostentatious and self indulgent. Plus, just think of how many small ones you can make for the price of that one BIG one!

[politburo player]

Education on Africa, as mentioned earlier, is lacking.

Most tribes lacked written language until the onset of white oppressors. Maybe that is why 'recorded' history is unavailable.

[eugenekop]

The reason for small Sudanese pyramids was because they were into making family sized pyramids and knew that making the big ones were really just being overly ostentatious and self indulgent. Plus, just think of how many small ones you can make for the price of that one BIG one!

No, that's your western thinking. They didn't build huge pyramids because they didn't have the organizational capability, nor the scientific thought. They were more primitive than the Egyptians.

[grassroots1]

It still says absolutely nothing conclusive about their relative intelligence, and all of your reluctance to admit that fact shows a precondition towards racist thought. I really don't mean that in a bad way, I just find it somewhat annoying that people are unable to maintain a position of skepticism and scientific thought about this particular era.

[flickerstorm]

forgot to post the Toilets of Gedi: http://www.newsrescue.com/wp-content/up ... srael1.jpg

Old Dongola (Sudan)

http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/i ... church.jpg
http://www.animatedweb.it/imagestore/im ... olain1.jpg
http://www.sahara.it/bm/saharaThree/mox ... 33_488.jpg

An article on Ancient Sudan with pictures:
http://www.spicey.demon.co.uk/Nubianpage/SUDANARC.htm

Great Zimbabwe:
http://destinationterre2.files.wordpres ... abwe-2.jpg
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-me ... F2D78D.jpg
http://www.tiger.edu.pl/kolodko/galeria ... mbabwe.jpg
http://www.wayfaring.info/wp-content/up ... ambers.jpg
http://www.garycook.co.uk/Africa/Zimbab ... o47233.jpg
http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/flickr- ... -image.jpg

In Southern Africa, there are at least 600 stone built ruins in the regions of Zimbabwe, Mozambique and South Africa. These ruins are called Mazimbabwe in Shona, the Bantu language of the builders, and means great revered house and “signifies court”.

Roha Ethiopia:

http://www.peace-on-earth.org/Ethiopia/507.jpg
http://www.pricelessethiopia.net.et/images/Lal5.jpg
http://www.bazaarplanet.com/images/ethi ... hiopia.JPG


Axum Ethiopia

http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/ethio ... ry-500.jpg
http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/ethio ... ks-500.jpg
http://www.sunnylandethiopiatours.com/images/axum.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/10/11831 ... 050cdf.jpg

An article on Axum and Lalibela: http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/ethio ... iopia.html

Cartago (Tunisia):
http://213.0.8.18/portal/Educantabria/C ... rthage.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/users/lisan ... rthage.jpg

Eredo Nigeria (hard to get any pictures at all. sorry for the quality :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/360000/im ... mid150.jpg
http://www.newciv.org/pic/nl/artpic/245 ... 000008.jpg

The recently discovered 9th century Nigerian city of Eredo was found to be surrounded by a wall that was 100 miles long and seventy feet high in places. The internal area was a staggering 400 square miles

Shonghai (west Africa):
http://www.kidspast.com/images/Songhai.jpg
http://www.maliexpeditions.com/english/ ... 0SONGO.JPG

Djao (I think in Niger):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... do-nah.jpg
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/22 ... 2-3122.jpg

I have many many more if you want me to post them.

[flickerstorm]

The ancient city of Erodo is believed by some to be the burial place of the queen of Sheba.

[kingbee]

But PP, you were the one who was telling me recently that any non-European civilisations were useless...

[fuser]

would you guys want me to open a thread about modern Africa?

Oh surely.

Some nice links you have provided in this thread. Personally I also don't know much about ancient black african civilization but how many people know about a civilization is hardly a criteria for greatness of a civilization. Its been a good read, this thread. Thanx for providing all those links...

I am saying is that I have never head of any african civilization

But just because you haven't heard or know something, it doesn't mean that that thing is non existent. Try to figure out why you don't know rather than implying that as you don't know it must be non existent.

[flickerstorm]

people underestimate Africa FAR too much.


population of Western Europe = 731 million

population of Argentina = 39 million

population of India= 1.15 billion

population of China= 1.35 billion

population of USA = 308 million


Together = 3.36 billion people, almost half the worlds population.

Population of Africa = 1.00 billion people. Yet take a look at this: http://headleefamily.net/how-big-is-africa/

All the countries posted above could fit into Africa with almost 500,000 KM to spare.

[Ombrageux]

flickerstorm - I personally think low population density has been a big factor in Africa developing different from, say, Europe, China or India.

[flickerstorm]

flickerstorm - I personally think low population density has been a big factor in Africa developing different from, say, Europe, China or India.

Yes, I also think it was a contributing factor. This is also the reason why west Africa (with a much higher population density) developed many more civilisations, and hundreds more cities than East or South Africa. And why the Europeans managed to conquer it so successfully. There were 90 million people living in Africa over 30 million KM sq vs 150 million living in Europe over just 4 million.

[flickerstorm]

This thread is about Ancient African architecture (pre-colonial). Notice how every culture utilised the materials at hand to the best of their abilities. Even the huts look cosy to live in .
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1175703

[Zyx]

I couldn't be arsed to read this thread, but I started doing some little research inspired by personal conversations and I came across the most important treasure for this thread: What's described as "Africa's largest single monument" by Barnaby Phillips, Eredo, is purported to not only be one of the very largest cities in all of human history, but comparable to the size of modern London and the largest city built in the ancient and medieval world. In other words, the premise of the racists' is debunked: were one to go to the most marvelous town of antiquity, one would place oneself in Africa. That is all.

flickerstorm mentions and posts images of Eredo (also misspelled it--which explains the difficulty reported on finding pictures) but didn't mention the above treat. At least now, encountered with claims of African inferiority, one can point to this colossal establishment in southwest Nigeria.

[Nets]

flickerstorm - I personally think low population density has been a big factor in Africa developing different from, say, Europe, China or India.

There is a reasonable question of causality here though. I always thought high population density followed from advanced civilization/agriculture, and not the reverse.

[Invictus_88]

"flickerstorm - I personally think low population density has been a big factor in Africa developing different from, say, Europe, China or India."

There is a reasonable question of causality here though. I always thought high population density followed from advanced civilization/agriculture, and not the reverse.

That and the number of people the land can sustain. In arid and semi-arid areas it is much harder for urban communities to come into existence, because it takes a greater amount of surrounding territory to supply it with the necessary supplies and labour, and the land will be much more sparsely populated anyway.
Bookchin reckoned so, anyway.

[Thita]

The relative underdevelopment of Africa has been neatly explained in Jarred Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel. GGS suggests that it was environmental reasons (like germs, dense vegetation, insects etc) and lack of access to the crops and animals of Eurasia that sealed Africa's fate. To the relative underdevelopment of Africa should be added a Eurocentric view of history that has only began to change in the past few decades and which denied those achievements that Africans were under these difficult conditions able to accomplish. The good news is that these no-longer apply to the same degree or at all in some cases so Africa's future is bright.

[Imperial Spaghetti]

The relative underdevelopment of Africa has been neatly explained in Jarred Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel. GGS suggests that it was environmental reasons (like germs, dense vegetation, insects etc) and lack of access to the crops and animals of Eurasia that sealed Africa's fate. To the relative underdevelopment of Africa should be added a Eurocentric view of history that has only began to change in the past few decades and which denied those achievements that Africans were under these difficult conditions able to accomplish. The good news is that these no-longer apply to the same degree or at all in some cases so Africa's future is bright.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I just got the ebook. Back to topic, I really think that these days racist stereotypes do not matter that much anymore. Africa and all other third world countries need to show the "evolved countries" that they can catch up, and I hope they start by overthrowing corrupt regimes. Once they achieve this, the West won't have any excuse to justify the continued existence of international organizations that have practically taken permanent residence in developing nations and their lack of efficiency. People in developing countries need to wake up, too.