[ThereBeDragons]

But why have a philosophical discussion?

I don't know. You're the one who wanted to start one.

[Zyx]

I don't know. You're the one who wanted to start one.

So you have no answer. I understand.

If it's sexual it's still abuse as the child is not fully emotionally or physically developed.

So all sex with children is abuse?

You just said that it's more the age gap.

Which one is it?

The typical age of losing one's virginity in the West, to this day, is a bit after sixteen.

Is the average person sexually abused?

You don't even know what you argue against.

The child will have sexual interest when the 40 year old Nigerian starts demanding sex and starts interfering with her.

then we might have..

Fourteen isn't really a 'child.'

Do you remember high school (assuming that you attended?)

[Zyx]

I think certainly 13 is too young. I think 16 or 17 is the minimum.

But you have no basis.

If the girl is post-puberty, then what changes from 14 to 16?

It's more abusive with an age gap as the sexual act is more predator like.

According to you.

What if the man is a decent fellow?

Is it better that he walks away from her and she deals with boys her own age without any real moralistic development?

--

Consider this Oliver7. Do not you prefer instructions from people more wise than you? Is it any bit predator-like or abusive that one more wise than you would instruct you? Does age gaps make instruction more abusive? Of course not.

With regard relations. If a woman must have a partner. Should not the best suited male be her partner, assuming that she's ready to have a relationship?

In the two-years between fourteen and sixteen, little changes are made. In this, the fourteen-year-old, post-pubescent, is physically ready for a relationship.

As to her mental readiness, what's it matter if one person is wiser than she? She benefits, especially as the boys her age are not to be decently wise for another four-ten years.

One essentially shaves off her hopeless years of courting lousy relations and gives her a good one from the headstart--assuming the Nigerian politician a good lover.

In other words, you've no argument but "I think . . . because I was born in 20th century Western . . . blah blah." It was pre-pubescent in the U.S. a little over a hundred years ago. Think about that.

[Zyx]

Is this the argument you will make before you become a sex offender?

Personally, I abstained from sex as a youth, knowing that an attraction to a person my age, even when I were fourteen, would be 'ephebophilia.'

So to say, the 'age gap' argument doesn't make sense.

The Brain of both a female and a male is not mature until 18 for the female and 21 for the male. That's just science. A girl at 13 anyone knows from looking is not emotionally developed to have an adult relationship with a 40 year old man.

Whether one's brain is fully developed or not, doesn't disqualify one from sexual acts. Try harder.

There is nothing decent about a fellow who abuses a child.

Tautology.

I'll just take this as a concession of ignorance.

It's weird that you'd organize a mob against an issue you've hardly considered.

Maybe you'll devote time to thinking on the subject, then a better conversation can be had.

As of now, you've said nothing and only demonstrated the depth (or lack thereof) of your critical analysis.

[ThereBeDragons]

So you have no answer. I understand.

I have been perfectly happy to provide a non-answer to your non-question.

[Zyx]

ThereBeDragons, do you believe that children as old as fourteen can not have sex without it being child abuse?

[ThereBeDragons]

Yes, it is possible for a fourteen year old to engage in sex that is not child abuse.

[Zyx]

Good.

[R_G]

When I was 18 I met this girl and her friend, her friend looked like 14 but she looked smoking hot and developed, thought she was 16 but turned out she had just turned 13.

Honestly as long as they are capable of giving birth it's not all that horrific unless this is prostitution.

It's a marriage.

[Aekos]

Honestly as long as they are capable of giving birth it's not all that horrific unless this is prostitution.

It's not horrific per se, but it will definitely have negative consequences for the girl. Her development as an individual will be stunted. She'll probably give birth at around 14 or 15, making her wholly dependant upon her husband. This isn't a feminist argument btw, if you have girls getting married off at such a young age, they become deficient, servile women later in life - would you really want half of your country's population to be so fragile and powerless?

[Gravy]

Thirteen year old boys and girls are physically under-developed. They are still growing, their bodies are changing and developing.

Under-developed children should not engage in sex. Therefore, marriage is out of the question also.

Contrary to popular belief, we live in primitive times, especially when men are given legal rights to marry and have sex with children.

[Aekos]

Contrary to popular belief, we live in primitive times, especially when men are given legal rights to marry and have sex with children.

Unless be "we" you mean Nigerians, then that simply isn't true.

[Rojik of the Arctic]

[Enough with the personal attacks. If it is not possible to discuss this topic in an orderly, sane manner the topic will be deleted. On a related note, if your post gets deleted by a moderator/administrator there is most likely a good reason for it.]

[Zyx]

She'll probably give birth at around 14 or 15, making her wholly dependant upon her husband.

This is unrealistic nonsense, the man is a politician.

If one has servants and daycares, a woman just gives birth and continues on developing.

The idea that this girl, thirteen, will still have to raise the child by herself despite the wealth, education and age of her husband is awkward, to say the least.

[jaycola]

Unlike any of you, I have a 13 year old daughter and I can assure you she is not emotionally or mentally ready for neither sex nor marriage.
She is a little girl, afraid of bugs, wants hugs and protection from her dad and still wants to be tucked in bed at night. She is not an adult, not a sexual being and not old enough to make wise decisions for herself. She is a child

Child marriage should be a crime. Parents who sell thier children into child marriage and the men who marry them should be arrested. The children should be taken from thier custody and there should be efforts made to protect any other children in thier care.

[politburo player]

Unlike any of you, I have a 13 year old daughter and I can assure you she is not emotionally or mentally ready for neither sex nor marriage.
She is a little girl, afraid of bugs, wants hugs and protection from her dad and still wants to be tucked in bed at night. She is not an adult, not a sexual being and not old enough to make wise decisions for herself. She is a child

Child marriage should be a crime. Parents who sell thier children into child marriage and the men who marry them should be arrested. The children should be taken from thier custody and there should be efforts made to protect any other children in thier care.

Agreed 100%. Fathering a young girl into womanhood involves much more direction from the father. 18 is the universally recognized age of adulthood. The reason for this is simple: most girls idolize their fathers and are hypersensitive to their father's opinions. If I ever father a young woman, I would go through great lengths to give her advice and be a positive role model.

On the same note, I don't think boys 15+ are 'raped' when they engage in sexual acts with adult women. They are 'lucky'.

[Zyx]

On the same note, I don't think boys 15+ are 'raped' when they engage in sexual acts with adult women. They are 'lucky'.

This doesn't make sense.

Unlike any of you, I have a 13 year old daughter and I can assure you she is not emotionally or mentally ready for neither sex nor marriage.

Pre- or Post-puberty?

The puberty issue is incredibly important.

For unfortunately, 'intellectual readiness' isn't entirely age dependent.

There are people older than me who are dumber than me.

[danholo]

And there are younger people who are smarter then you - but they certainly are children, in many ways. Tell me, Zyx, from where does all this philosophizing come from? Puberty has nothing to do with this. It is most likely that children even at the age of 18 are not mature enough for sex or any type of committed relationship, not to mention marriage. This comes from knowing quite a bit of teenagers, and having a unhealthy obsession with them (of course, never broke the law.) But I'm pretty much past that phase. It's hard to fight the seduction but if they are doing it at young ages like 13, they are most likely compensating for the love their dad never gave them. I personally know girls who had sex at very young ages (13-14), with much older guys. They are not healthy, in many ways.

[Zyx]

This post is a bit rushed.

And there are younger people who are smarter then you -

Na.

I nearly wrote that but it wouldn't be true.

Tell me, Zyx, from where does all this philosophizing come from? Puberty has nothing to do with this.

I earlier quoted a doctrine in the second century, explaining how women were 'sexed' at that age.*

It is most likely that children even at the age of 18 are not mature enough for sex or any type of committed relationship, not to mention marriage.

The thing is that it's most likely that few are mature. That's the real problem.

I mean, sit down and ask yourself, how can there be good if no one knows what goodness is?

From there, the discussion seems rather arbitrary.

Women can have children at 14 and sex is for reproduction--this maturity thing is very culturally specific.

Western children rarely learn about sex so naturally they are immature.

It's weird if one is attracted to a fourteen year old, but that's our culture . . ..

But I'm pretty much past that phase. It's hard to fight the seduction but if they are doing it at young ages like 13, they are most likely compensating for the love their dad never gave them. I personally know girls who had sex at very young ages (13-14), with much older guys. They are not healthy, in many ways.

I agree, but Western society really, really sucks.

We are so isolated and there's rarely any self-respect.

I mean, I'm a professional Astrophysicist yet I'm really nothing in common society.

Life sucks.

Women nearly always have unhealthy relationships. That's just how culture made it.

That's why--if I may--I liked the Museum. It showed even the Ancient Egyptians had men above women (A sculpture showed the man as nearly twice the size of the woman). Interestingly, though, a theme in the African art was of male and female equality. It made me smile. :-)

But yeah, society sucks. Many women would busy themselves with entirely sexual relationships, hoping to at least get a penny from it: prostitution if you will.

The fact is that this girl would probably be a prostitute in the variety of forms the West produces them. So it's a non-issue whether her prostitution involves money, a ring or 'an understanding.'

*The online translation suggests this is a bad thing. Yet it's bad in how society is formed, not in and of itself.

[the_k]

Unlike any of you, I have a 13 year old daughter and I can assure you she is not emotionally or mentally ready for neither sex nor marriage.
She is a little girl, afraid of bugs, wants hugs and protection from her dad and still wants to be tucked in bed at night. She is not an adult, not a sexual being and not old enough to make wise decisions for herself. She is a child

Child marriage should be a crime. Parents who sell thier children into child marriage and the men who marry them should be arrested. The children should be taken from thier custody and there should be efforts made to protect any other children in thier care.

Your daughter had a VERY different up bringing than a girl (same age), likely poor, in Nigeria. Emotional development has less to do with age than the society/circumstances one is raised in. The maturity level of your daughter and a 13 year old girl from Afghanistan for example would be poles apart; only because one child has had a pampered life, shielded from the realities and hardships of life while the other has been exposed to them all her life.

that said, I do not condone marrying off 13 year olds.