[Kaspar]

Incompetence can often be traced all the way to the top:

the nation's leader

Please re-read the forum rules.

You are connecting incompetence to a style of dance characteristic of South Africa's Zulu population.

Again, I'm not going to contribute anything to this thread until you begin behaving maturely.

The only thing you're achieving in this thread is making yourself look like an ignorant, uneducated racist.

[politburo player]

You have already made it clear that you couldn't make it through my OP, why would I bother appeasing you at this point?

I am merely connecting the dots here. I do not think that his conduct, dancing included, is appropriate for a head of state.

Also, you win the award for the greatest use of the race card by one person in a thread. My OP hardly mentions race. Read it, racist.

[Kaspar]

It's not a matter of appeasing me, [cut]

Here is the reasoning for my harsh words:

The police resemble roving gangs of warlords, many of whom take pride in molesting the newly beleaguered 'second' class out of existence, raping their women with the protection of both the courts and the corrupt socialist bureaucracy.

This is equivalent to saying the U.S. Police Force goes out of its way to rape and murder African-Americans. Due to the extreme lack of truth behind this statement, I immediately assume you are attempting to fabricate factual information just to prove you point that South Africa was better under Apartheid. This for one is why I don't take you seriously.

It had at least 3 first world cities (Cape Town, Johannesburg, Durban) that would rival many other former European colonies like Montreal, Sydney, and Auckland.

Again, you ignore obvious, glaring facts that contradict your argument just so you can somehow capitalize in proving your absurd point that South Africa was better under Apartheid. Funny, when I was in Sydney and Montreal I must have overlooked the sprawling shantytowns that make up most of the urban population. Again, it appears you're attempting to fabricate truths just to prove your belief that South Africa was better under Apartheid.

The 'death of Johannesburg' blog visually chronicles the decline of Johannesburg from a world class city to something similar to Detroit; a burned out, boarded up city that is a mere shadow if its former glory.

I just reviewed your site, and I'm curious how you can deduce the state of a city by some photos a person posts online. Not to mention the fact that this person clearly has an objective in mind. I mean, the blog is called The Death of Johannesburg, do you think the author is going to post pictures of Johannesburg improving even if the city was improving?

This puts South Africa in an economic purgatory. It is either a very poor developed country or a developing country with negative GDP growth. I don't know which is worse.

Well, there has been this thing in the news lately, called a global recession. And just for your information, South Africa is reporting growth again, so this is old information.

25% unemployment rate - and growing

Pre-recession employment rates. EDIT - and the source is a well-respected statistics organization based in South Africa, called Quantec.




While some of these points appear to just be mere ignorance, I also have to conclude that because so many of these points are so drastically unintelligent, the only possible explanation for your argument is that you are trying to find an excuse for why you believe South Africa was better under Apartheid. Due to this reasoning, I come to the conclusion that your motives are genuinely racist and lack any merit whatsoever. It seems that you believe South Africa was better under Apartheid not because it was factually better, but because you want it to be better.

EDIT -

Also, you win the award for the greatest use of the race card by one person in a thread.

You realize you are arguing in support of Apartheid. How does one disagree and not bring up "the race card?"

I am merely connecting the dots here. I do not think that his conduct, dancing included, is appropriate for a head of state.

But when they waltz, it's perfectly fine. How can you honestly tell yourself you are not being racist?

[politburo player]

Every other word you used in your last post was either "under" or "apartheid". This thread isn't about apartheid. You obviously look at the history of your own country through the prism of one of its ugliest policies. Why not look at the history of your country from a more positive standpoint? Aren't you proud to be from South Africa? Aren't you proud that SA is the only African state with widespread infrastructure, irrigation, highways and skyscrapers? Do you think that would all be there had the newly beleaguered class of whites been treated like they are now?

All I am saying in this thread is 'don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg'.

If you think the ANC goons will do better at - a) education b) crime c) prosperity - then good luck to ya. It's hard to do good at those things when the new South African business model is based on 'lowest common denominator'.

Oh and by the way, what's with the Obama pic? Thanks for highlighting that he outclasses Zuma by 1000%.

[Kaspar]

Every other word you used in your last post was either "under" or "apartheid". This thread isn't about apartheid.

How is this thread not about Apartheid? Your original post stated how things were better during Apartheid and how now they are worse.

Do you think that would all be there had the newly beleaguered class of whites been treated like they are now?

We're not as beleaguered as you seem to think.

And by the way, the main point behind my last post was to prove you're being racist, I think that's something you would want to address.

EDIT - in response to your edit, the Obama pic is highlight how you're being racist. Please read the caption located above the picture. It is actually sort of funny how your edit only strengthens my point on how you're being racist.

[politburo player]

How is this thread not about Apartheid? Your original post stated how things were better during Apartheid and how now they are worse.

I never said things were better "before apartheid". Most of the innuendo in my OP revolved around themes like "pre communist rule", "post colonial power", and/or inferior, corrupt, or inept ANC government services at present.

My main points regarding "pre communist rule" were:

-SA had less crime (especially home invasions, carjackings, murders and rapes - the big ones)

-SA had better access and education results

-SA had no "affirmative action" for job positions requiring experience or advanced education - and SA takes affirmative action to the extreme

-SA was not purging itself of its educated class, merchants, and businesspeople (1 million gone since 1995)

-SA was never as corrupt (corrupt is a soft term)

-SA had less of a 'banana republic' feel

[Kaspar]

Keep trying to find ways to ignore my one substantial post in this thread.

[politburo player]

You really have not contributed to this thread - all you have done is personally attack me and ignore the facts/statistics that I have shared.

This one's for you...

[Kaspar]

I never said things were better "before apartheid". Most of the innuendo in my OP revolved around themes like "pre communist rule", "post colonial power", and/or inferior, corrupt, or inept ANC government services at present.

What you call pre-communist rule was Apartheid. Now you're just trying to fool around with semantics in an effort to save your position.

And for your information, the ANC is not communist.

ignore the facts/statistics

My main post in this thread debunked a number of your supposed "facts" and you still haven't responded to anything that was stated in that post.

And you still have not proven you aren't racist.

I'm not posting in this thread again until you address the points I discussed in my previously mentioned post. Debates don't work well when you ignore what the other person is trying to say.

[politburo player]

It is a cheap shot to just call someone a racist because you don't agree with their views. The OP is titled 'debating S. Africa without sounding racist', and just because you view the world through the prism of uber-liberal social activism does not mean that anyone who doesn't embrace your far left views is a racist.

I could really care less if you do not return to this thread, as all you have done is call me names and act like a troll. In other words, I am not going to revise this thread to be 'politically correct' so that it doesn't hurt your feelings...

[Kapanda]

^ A picture of Obama and his wife in traditional European ballroom wear makes him classy, a few segments of Mr Zuma dancing shows he's incompetent. You're racist.

Though apartheid may have produced better numbers/economic indicators, the privileges associated with those numbers were only being enjoyed by white people, when the majority of the population was black. Of course the country is better off now.

[Kaspar]

I really don't want to make this post, but at the same time I want to feel like I at least accomplished something amid this clustfuck of a thread.

If you take the time to look at my aforementioned post, you'll see that I disproved a number of your claims from the OP, thus making your argument invalid. In the process, I stated that such blatant untruths lead me to thinking that your posts are racist.

Now, you should have two personal interests in responding to that post, instead of ignoring it like you currently are.

1) First of all, my post refutes many of the "facts" you describe in your OP, thus making your argument invalid.

2) Secondly, I stated my belief that your antics are racist.

At this point I don't even care if respond to the latter point, I am just asking you to respond to my post in some coherent manner.

Now it's time you get over this:

It is a cheap shot to just call someone a racist because you don't agree with their views.

[Ombrageux]

There was "Affirmative Action" under Apartheid: Whites got everything.

[politburo player]

Of course, Kaspar, you would rather have a system where everybody is equally poor as opposed to a system based on merit.

Do you think it is just one big coincidence that 1 million whites have left (fled) your peaceful utopia???

What do you think about the ANC mandated land redistribution, specifically white owned farms? Many of these transactions have taken place under threat of violence, or even at gunpoint. If you deny this epidemic you will be sailing into idiot territory.

[Kaspar]

Ok, here is one more way of saying it.

communication |kəˌmyoōnəˈkā sh ən|
noun
1 the imparting or exchanging of information or news

Exchanging is what I'm going after here, let's try to exchange information.

To further explain, what generally happens on this forum is that someone responds to another post based on what the previous post was about. That way, there is a clear, coherent exchange of information between the two people.

Please respond to my aforementioned post.

P.S. -

Of course, Kaspar, you would rather have a system where everybody is equally poor as opposed to a system based on merit. [...] Do you think it is just one big coincidence that 1 million whites have left (fled) your peaceful utopia???

Straw-maning me isn't getting you anywhere. This is getting absolutely pathetic.

Seeing that you're creating wild assumptions about my position as a result of my previous posts, maybe it's time you actually address my previous posts so that we can debate this matter in a normal fashion instead of adding cute little pictures of people sailing miniature boats in puddles.

[politburo player]

Pre-recession employment rates. EDIT - and the source is a well-respected statistics organization based in South Africa, called Quantec.



While some of these points appear to just be mere ignorance, I also have to conclude that because so many of these points are so drastically unintelligent, the only possible explanation for your argument is that you are trying to find an excuse for why you believe South Africa was better under Apartheid. Due to this reasoning, I come to the conclusion that your motives are genuinely racist and lack any merit whatsoever. It seems that you believe South Africa was better under Apartheid not because it was factually better, but because you want it to be better.

Claim #1

~Unemployment - 25%

I will concede that 25% is exceedingly good compared to the rest of the continent. OK, point accepted, you are right.

Claim #2

This is equivalent to saying the U.S. Police Force goes out of its way to rape and murder African-Americans. Due to the extreme lack of truth behind this statement, I immediately assume you are attempting to fabricate factual information just to prove you point that South Africa was better under Apartheid. This for one is why I don't take you seriously.

~Indolent, unresponsive police -

There is a virtual kingdom of websites that chronicle the rise in crime, as well as police incompetence in dealing with the rise in crime in SA. The rise in crime is South Africa is directly attributed to "have's" and "have nots". From poor people with nothing to lose who steal, to sophisticated criminal syndicates, South Africa has the dubious honor of being the crime capital of the world, if you don't count Afghanistan and a couple other failed states. One South African insurance company, Hollard Insurance, no longer insures Volkswagen Citi Golfs as they are one of the most frequently hijacked vehicles in South Africa. Also, a recent new trend in South Africa is for thieves to enter restaurants and rob the patrons eating there. In July 2008, the Restaurant Association of South Africa (RASA) was forced to raise the security classification of the capital's restaurants to "caution areas". The problems mentioned in my OP are so widespread that Wikipedia has a specific category for each South African crime epidemic! Quite a distinguishing honor.

From Google.........

"crime in SA" (27,100,000 results),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

"SA gated communities" (146,000 results),
from wikipedia: "In post-apartheid South Africa, gated communities have mushroomed in response to high levels of violent crime."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gated_community

"Afrikaaner rape" (1,200,000 results),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_vio ... uth_Africa

"SA Farm genocide" (711,000 results),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks


Since I kindly answered two of your previous points, giving you full credit for one, I feel it incumbent upon you to respond to my above response to police incompetence, etc.

[wishywashyliberal]

I find it hard to debate south africa without humming that great spitting image song on the issue.

[Kaspar]

Yes, I agree crime is terrible in South Africa, but your original statement was just sensationalist hogwash.

You claimed that South Africa's police force was going out of its way to rape white citizens. And then you go on to say that our court system supports this supposed trend that is taking place among my country's police. I don't think you realize how incredibly ridiculous this claim is.

And while the South African police may be seen as incompetent now in comparison to Apartheid era police, you have to realize that South Africa went from being a police-state to free democracy in a matter of months. If South Africa were to revert back to its old style of fighting crime it would be violating a number of human rights crimes. It is also important to note that a reason why police were so efficient during Apartheid was because of racial segregation

I agree South Africa needs to make major changes in the way it handles crime and prosecutes criminals, however, South Africa is experiencing something practically no other nation has experienced. After years of the Group Areas Act and being a virtual police-state, is it really surprising that crime sky-rocketed after the first free elections? And I would like to remind you that crime has been steadily increasing since the 1970s, albeit with a major jump in the mid 1990s. For the past few years, crime levels have begun to taper off.

"Afrikaaner rape" (1,200,000 results),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_vio ... uth_Africa

I don't understand what the link has to do with "Afrikaner Rape." And I've heard very little news about Afrikaners being specifically targeted for rape. I've read a couple isolated stories from questionable sources; it is definitely not a national trend.

And I agree that farm violence has not been sufficiently addressed by the ANC. Overall, I think the ANC is doing a poor job running the country and I personally have not voted ANC since 1994. The majority of your points about South Africa have been so off that both sides of the South African political spectrum would disagree with you.

[politburo player]

Thanks for addressing the issues I brought up in such an admirable, classy way. Even though we are ideologically split, and I disagree with many of your convictions about South Africa, most racial or post-Apartheid arguments about South Africa are like water under the bridge. What happened, happened, and South Africans now have to contend with a future that will be defined by the polarizing, Pan-African political party that dominates their country. Instead of quarreling about the past, the only thing we can really do is speculate about South Africa's future.

Also, all I have to formulate my opinions from are what a few South African acquaintances have told me, and the internet. You actually reside there. But I think the enormity of the world wide web exposes things that the liberal media (BBC, CNN), and certainly the SA media would never report. Farm violence and bloody land redistribution crimes are solely reported by independent websites and blogs; the liberal mainstream media has not and probably will never touch these stories, even though most credible sources put the number of white SA farmers killed since 1994 at 3,200, and most of the victims have little hope of legal redress in the corrupt ANC bureaucracy. These crimes are probably, according to some liberals, a necessary or acceptable byproduct of a justified people's revolution.

The future of South Africa will, in my opinion, be determined by how it's government decides to treat its white population. My conclusion for this is simple; even though whites comprise a mere 9.6% of the population on a good day, they make up over half of SA university graduates. In addition, much of the non-white population ended up in the nation's universities through militant affirmative action policies. Given the well documented 'brain drain' in South Africa since 1994, it will be incumbent on South Africa's leaders to curtail it from further undermining the country.

Kaspar,

What SA websites would you recommend I visit to get 'your side' of the story?

[Kaspar]

Instead of quarreling about the past, the only thing we can really do is speculate about South Africa's future.

I believe you were the one that brought up South Africa's past in the first place:

It turns out, South Africa has an ugly history.

-----

Also, all I have to go on is what a few South African acquaintances have told me, and the internet.

You keep making references to your sources on South Africa, but you haven't linked or sourced any of them, other than wikipedia which rarely has up to date information. And for a situation as a controversial as South African politics, wikipeidia rarely contains both sides of the story. This, combined with your way off-target analysis of South Africa, makes me highly skeptical of where you are getting your information from.

Also, you tend to make these general, outlandish statements about South Africa that don't require much physical data analysis, just words and vague ideas. While these statements have some truth in them, they are also extremely wrong as well. An example would be when you said South Africa is the crime capital of the world outside of Afghanistan and other failed states. Or when you say that restaurants are experiencing a greater increase in criminal activity. Yes, there is truth in these statements but do they reflect the overall picture? Where is your hard data, not just stories of restaurants having to up security?

I agree that crime rates sky-rocketed during the 90s and early 2000s, but as I showed you in the last graph it is beginning to level and even decrease. Maybe you need to stop living in the past and accept the current situation in South Africa.

You make it sound like South Africa is spiraling down into complete chaos, but at this point I generally see South Africa moving forward.

Sources that I read and get "my side" of the story from include allAfrica, a website that pools various news sources on Africa, and I get the Sunday Times delivered. AllAfrica is very much unbiased, and has sources from both conservative and liberal news commentators. I would suggest that website for news on any African country.