[Durban Poison]

Hello my friends.
I am a young Afrikaner in Canada.
I am worried about not only my country of South Africa, but also those of the whole Southern African region.
You see if South Africa goes down the toilet, the rest of Southern Africa will get even worse.
You might be thinking that it cannot possibly get any worse but it can.
So, What are you're opinions on what South Africa's future will be?
Hopefully It will keep growing economically it hasn't been doing so badly but I think the growth has only been in the governments pocket.
Any thoughts on this?


DURBAN

[Durban Poison]

Is nobody going to at least attempt?

[politburo player]

I met a beautiful 24 year old South African girl while in Kelowna, British Columbia last summer. She worked at Earl's, a Canadian restaurant chain known for its 20-something hot waitresses. I tell you what, there was never a sweeter girl... I guess she emigrtated to BC a few years earlier with her family.

Check out MY thread if you want to get a word in edgewise... You will have a lot of fodder to pick through...

[Kapanda]

I feel at authority to speak on behalf of Angola (who, as all Souther African nations, has strong economic ties with SA), and I can say that things are getting better. There is an urge among the populus to work towards a better nation, and its manifestations on the ground are visible. From that point of view, I never had lack of faith in Africa, but I am even more assured now that things will only get better.

[Okonkwo]

I never had lack of faith in Africa, but I am even more assured now that things will only get better.

I agree - Africa is at a crucial point right now to realise its full potential.
The grim picture the critics paint only serves as propaganda to continue the myth of the chaotic, primitive and passive continent when the absolute opposite is true. This is evidenced by, say, the increase of the use of condoms in South Africa and the subsequent fall of HIV prevalence, the actual rate of violent crime that is still high, nonetheless falling:



and other statistics, such South Africa's accomplishments regarding its welfare state, public housing, 80% electricity and water availability (up by 33% since 1996), free public schools, free health clinics and the establishment of a new black middle class - an estimated 2.6m of South Africa’s 39m blacks (about 80% of the total population) now earn at least 6,000 rand a month, with many earning a lot more.
There may be reason for cautiousness, but certainly not reason for pessimism.

[politburo player]

I agree - Africa is at a crucial point right now to realise its full potential.
The grim picture the critics paint only serves as propaganda to continue the myth of the chaotic, primitive and passive continent when the absolute opposite is true. This is evidenced by, say, the increase of the use of condoms in South Africa and the subsequent fall of HIV prevalence, the actual rate of violent crime that is still high, nonetheless falling:

What if the West stopped dumping 'free' money into Africa tomorrow? They (Africans) have gotten so used to handouts that it has destroyed their chance of legitimate economic development. Their economies, institutions and political systems will always be fragile if we keep on giving them so much 'white guilt' aid. Also, a pretty obvious reason everybody is hungry in Africa is because Africans breed to much. It seems like the poorest countries in Africa also have the highest birthrates. Remember that African society is still the last one in the world that clings to a 'hunter gatherer' mentality. They are late bloomers. It may take generations to shake that regressive cultural trait before they are independent of Western aid.

[Ombrageux]

It seems like the poorest countries in Africa also have the highest birthrates.

You don't suppose there is a relationship?

[Okonkwo]

What if the West stopped dumping 'free' money into Africa tomorrow?

That would be a most welcome development.
Foreign aid has mostly harmed Africa and it should be phased out by all means. Limitless assistance to African governments has fostered dependency, encouraged corruption and ultimately perpetuated poor governance and poverty.
In the past fifty years, more than $1 trillion in development-related aid has been transferred from rich countries to Africa. The recipients of this aid are not better off as a result of it, but worse. Over-reliance on aid has trapped developing nations in a vicious circle of aid dependency, corruption, market distortion, and further poverty, leaving them with nothing but the "need" for more aid. There is much need for new development of the world's poorest countries that guarantees economic growth and a significant decline in poverty without reliance on foreign aid or aid-related assistance. Regarding South Africa (and, incidentally, Botswana) you misplace your criticism - this country has prospered (relatively) precisely because it hasn't allowed itself to become heavily dependent on aid.

Remember that African society is still the last one in the world that clings to a 'hunter gatherer' mentality. They are late bloomers. It may take generations to shake that regressive cultural trait before they are independent of Western aid.

You're spouting absolute nonsense.
The little glimpse of the truth one may be able to discern from your ignorant ramblings is that Africans desperately need to institute a policy of birth control akin to the one-child-policy of the PRC. This, together with actual economic progress would do away with the high birthrates within one generation. It can be done.

[politburo player]

You don't suppose there is a relationship?

Yea, we shouldn't reward high birthrates in the poorest countries by giving more handouts. It only encourages them to have more babies that will end up starving. I know this sounds like nails on a chalkboard to liberals and Pan-African pseudo-scholars, but it's the hard truth.

You're spouting absolute nonsense.
The little glimpse of the truth one may be able to discern from your ignorant ramblings is that Africans desperately need to institute a policy of birth control akin to the one-child-policy of the PRC. This, together with actual economic progress would do away with the high birthrates within one generation. It can be done.

See above

You're spouting absolute nonsense.

That's classic liberal shriek for hitting a nerve of truth.

[Kapanda]

Yea, we shouldn't reward high birthrates in the poorest countries by giving more handouts. It only encourages them to have more babies that will end up starving. I know this sounds like nails on a chalkboard to liberals and Pan-African pseudo-scholars, but it's the hard truth.

People in Africa don't have more babies because the West is 'rewarding' them...

[Okonkwo]

That's classic liberal shriek for hitting a nerve of truth.

Good God, I am anything but a liberal. This merely goes on to show that you have no idea of what you are talking about. How about you actually try to address what I explained?
A combined policy of economic planning for the development of an industrial sector, birth controlling policies and the introduction of a genuine African nationalism into the hearts of the people is what is needed.

[Kapanda]

Okonkwo, I think that all that Africa needs is nothing so elaborate as what you mention.

No corruption, and a functioning legal system. All else then will fall in place.

[Okonkwo]

Okonkwo, I think that all that Africa needs is nothing so elaborate as what you mention.
No corruption, and a functioning legal system. All else then will fall in place.

I disagree, I believe that this statement is far too optimistic. This would only scratch the surface when nothing less than a complete overhaul is absolutely necessary to secure Africa's future in the face of an increasingly troubled global economy - this is a factor you direly need to include in your outlook considering how worldwide capitalism is a force to be reckoned with.
If the highly developed Western states cannot weather the storm, how could a developing African nation do so, however well its legal system may function.

[Kapanda]

This increasingly troubled economy not only never stopped growing, but goes, as predicted, through cycles and phases. What we witnessed up until now is not a permanent state.

I would also assert that the troubles created by developed nations hurt developing nations by contagion only. The credit bubbles formed in the first world wouldn't be created so easily in the third world, purely because there is so little need for speculation. Granted, capitalism is bound to always create these cycles, however, in countries where a business can be created by selling the very basics, there is little need to speculate on asset prices. This is what we witness in Africa.

The two nations that are experiencing significant troubles on "weathering the storm" are two nations that were crippled by their banking sector - Iceland, that let its banks totally speculate (in essence) the markets, and Greece, whose bank assets, again, became questionable. Africa is far from entering that phase of economics.

[politburo player]

Good God, I am anything but a liberal. This merely goes on to show that you have no idea of what you are talking about. How about you actually try to address what I explained?
A combined policy of economic planning for the development of an industrial sector, birth controlling policies and the introduction of a genuine African nationalism into the hearts of the people is what is needed.

I am sorry, maybe I jumped the gun a little.

I agree with you that birth control should be a high priority.

the development of an industrial sector

By this do you mean more sweatshops?

the introduction of a genuine African nationalism

Wouldn't that lead to more wars?

[Okonkwo]

By this do you mean more sweatshops?

The idea is to begin a programme of rapid industrialisation. This can be done by (careful) economic planning with an emphasis on the development of heavy industry to become a manufacturer of basic and heavy industrial products. The state can then sufficiently subsidise them into being competitive on the world stage.

Wouldn't that lead to more wars?

It depends on what framework of states we are talking about - ideally Africa would be a federated union of republics that corresponded as closely as possible to actual ethnic divisions: do away with the colonisers' borders entirely.
If we choose to discount this as unrealistic then I would see it as necessary to remind you that nationalism is not necessarily chauvinism. In a multi-ethnic country it is of utmost importance to create some sort of connection that transcends tribal lines. This is where a positive patriotism can do wonders, one of the biggest problems of African states right now is simply that their citizens don't feel as if they belong to a larger nation. That needs to be changed.

[politburo player]

Lofty goals... West Africa is a lost cause. I say let Darwin take his course.

The East Coast of Africa shows a lot more promise. Read up on Somaliland and the progress they are making without any aid...

[Jackal]

The whites need to gain significant power in South Africa again. The best thing you can do, Durban Poison, is keep in touch with your Afrikaner roots, make sure you are fluent in Afrikaans (pass it on to your children and make sure they understand the importance of it) and eventually move back to South Africa and help get the ball rolling. If you want to salvage your homeland, you must be willing to take radical action and make sure, although you are Afrikaner, to cooperate with the Brits that are there. You also mentioned that you are young, I assuming college aged or maybe slightly younger. Go to college and try to get as much done as possible (a Ph.D would be ideal). It takes a strong person to do such things, are you willing to take on that task?

[Ombrageux]

Yea, we shouldn't reward high birthrates in the poorest countries by giving more handouts. It only encourages them to have more babies that will end up starving. I know this sounds like nails on a chalkboard to liberals and Pan-African pseudo-scholars, but it's the hard truth.

By golly yes, people in the villages and slums of Nigeria and Chad are having babies based upon how much money NGOs and their governments get from foreigners. It is the sort of thing they keep a close tally of. Very different from the European mentality, you see. In the first half of the nineteenth century, when there was no welfare at all, the White Man's natural reaction is profligately proliferate like rabbits. Not so the African, whose rate of reproduction is closely correlated with Western taxpayer disgruntlement at subsidizing said fornication.

[Dave]

I don't believe the case is that aid from NGOs and Western governments accelerates the rate of reproduction in Africa, but rather that it sustains the population level above its carrying capacity. Without the aid one would expect the mortality rate to increase, thereby reducing the population.

Europid and negroid patterns of sexuality and reproduction are different, but that is irrelevant to this point.