[Le Rouge]

South Africa suffers from:
Excessive debt
Government unaccountability
Deficient economic policy

If it can correct these three problems, it will become a regional power broker and play a stabilizing role in southern Africa (however, Botswana may outpace them).

[Kaspar]

The whites need to gain significant power in South Africa again. The best thing you can do, Durban Poison, is keep in touch with your Afrikaner roots, make sure you are fluent in Afrikaans (pass it on to your children and make sure they understand the importance of it) and eventually move back to South Africa and help get the ball rolling. If you want to salvage your homeland, you must be willing to take radical action and make sure, although you are Afrikaner, to cooperate with the Brits that are there. You also mentioned that you are young, I assuming college aged or maybe slightly younger. Go to college and try to get as much done as possible (a Ph.D would be ideal). It takes a strong person to do such things, are you willing to take on that task?

What exactly are you saying? What needs to be salvaged? It seems like you are supporting the preservation of Afrikaner culture, and then you go on to advise that he cooperate with the "Brits" (as if Afrikaners don't cooperate with other white South Africans already). And what do you mean by taking radical action? As a white South African, I am sort of disturbed by such strong language coming from a Cuban-American (if I remember correctly) who appears to have a very archaic view of South African society.

And exactly how is keeping in touch with his Afrkaner roots going to improve South Africa? Don't you think it would be more useful if he focused on trying to fight corruption, or trying to bolster the opposition's strength in parliament, or maybe even becoming an industrial tycoon of some sort? Believe me, I have nothing against Afrkaner culture, I just think it makes more sense that if he wants to help South Africa, he would help South Africa.

If it can correct these three problems, it will become a regional power broker and play a stabilizing role in southern Africa (however, Botswana may outpace them).

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by a regional power broker, how could Botswana possibly outpace South Africa? South Africa has a population 25x larger, a more developed economy, and overall more international clout.

[Nets]

Frankly, I think the elephant in the room which hasn't been mentioned is AIDS.

Economic growth and increased law and order are great, but unless the proportion of the population with AIDS isn't drastically reduced I don't think Southern Africa has a future.

A sobering graph when placed next to the optimistic ones posted by Okon is the following:

[politburo player]

Kaspar wrote:

What exactly are you saying? What needs to be salvaged? It seems like you are supporting the preservation of Afrikaner culture, and then you go on to advise that he cooperate with the "Brits" (as if Afrikaners don't cooperate with other white South Africans already). And what do you mean by taking radical action? As a white South African, I am sort of disturbed by such strong language coming from a Cuban-American (if I remember correctly) who appears to have a very archaic view of South African society.

Liberals in the west always push "preserving native culture" campaigns under the guise of multiculturalism. In reality, liberals only care about preserving ethinc heritage, because the notion of preserving 'white' culture is just downright racist and counterproductive. Why should we not celebrate and/or preserve a rare culture that by all accounts is disappearing, no matter what color its adherents are? I think proud Afrikaners get a bad rap.



This graph highlights the reality of what happened to the lifestyles of people from Southern Africa when whites were booted from power. The early 90's seem to be a very telling time period. It seems like the resurgence of native cultures and traditions in post-white Southern Africa has actually helped the spread of AIDS. Could it be that, having replaced the white status quo, the onset of native power propagated more sexually promiscuous lifestyles among native Africans? I think so...

[Le Rouge]

Anyone who thinks pre-colonial and colonial African cultures were sexually promiscuous has forfeited any credentials on the subject matter.

[Kapanda]

Frankly, I think the elephant in the room which hasn't been mentioned is AIDS.

I'm a big, big fan of the West Wing. I say that when I'm about to give an inaccurate quote, but there was one episode when the President of the fantasy country of Kundu came over, because his people had AIDS. And the President of the US, President Bartlett, said something like. "There is this notion that these people aren't dying because they're HIV positive, they're dying because they're poor."

That's really loose paraphrasing though, it doesn't even sound right. But it conveys the right message.

It seems like the resurgence of native cultures and traditions in post-white Southern Africa has actually helped the spread of AIDS. Could it be that, having replaced the white status quo, the onset of native power propagated more sexually promiscuous lifestyles among native Africans? I think so...

If you ever honestly wonder why people deem you racist, it's because of these massive leaps of logic you make to reach a racist conclusion. This is ridiculous, and you are racist.

[politburo player]

Anyone who thinks pre-colonial and colonial African cultures were sexually promiscuous has forfeited any credentials on the subject matter.

Ok, so why does every African woman have like 9 kids?

And why do most African women admit to being raped, and most African men admit to being rapists?

Kapanda-

Sorry I'm not as liberal as you...

[Wolfman]

Because you're idiotically mistaking sexual promiscuousness for having a large family. They're in the second development stage, which means it's socially encouraged to have a lot of kids. The same was true of the US and Europe a century ago.

[politburo player]

Because you're idiotically mistaking sexual promiscuousness for having a large family.

It's sexually promiscuous when the majority of those kids don't know who their daddy is...

They're in the second development stage, which means it's socially encouraged to have a lot of kids. The same was true of the US and Europe a century ago.

Oh really? I have been enlightened! How many other parallels can you draw between Europe and Africa?

[Wolfman]

It's sexually promiscuous when the majority of those kids don't know who their daddy is...

This goes back to you having no credibility.

Oh really? I have been enlightened!

Sarcasm isn't needed. Either you don't care that it's a different set of social values, or you didn't know. Besides, sarcastic responses just make you look ignorant.

[politburo player]

Sarcasm isn't needed. Either you don't care that it's a different set of social values, or you didn't know. Besides, sarcastic responses just make you look ignorant.

It is hilarious that you compared modern day Africa to "Europe a century ago". That is beyond hilarious.

That highlights how wrong you are, and your argument for Africa's alleged progress in comparing it to Europe in its time of industrial expansion is like a one legged stool, hence the typical liberal cry after having been outwitted and proven wrong; "you're Ignorant!"

[Wolfman]

I'm not talking about industrial development. What are you babbling about?

[Kaspar]

Liberals in the west always push "preserving native culture" campaigns under the guise of multiculturalism. In reality, liberals only care about preserving ethinc heritage, because the notion of preserving 'white' culture is just downright racist and counterproductive. Why should we not celebrate and/or preserve a rare culture that by all accounts is disappearing, no matter what color its adherents are? I think proud Afrikaners get a bad rap.

I feel like I should respond to this, but I'm sort of baffled as to how this is relevant to the thread's discussion.

I'm not talking about industrial development. What are you babbling about?

I see you've had the unpleasant experience of getting into an argument with politburo player.

Anyone who thinks pre-colonial and colonial African cultures were sexually promiscuous has forfeited any credentials on the subject matter.

Agreed.

[Wolfman]

It happens. What are you going to do?

[politburo player]

Your most recent contribution to this thread was when you said:

They're in the second development stage, which means it's socially encouraged to have a lot of kids. The same was true of the US and Europe a century ago.

With regards to the "second development stage" Europe witnessed "100 years ago", I don't see how you can classify what is happening in Africa with anything that has ever happened in Europe. Moreover, I have never heard of a case where African society or individual African governments have ever encouraged increased births per capita. But this is irrelevant, because the single defining aspect of, "Europe 100 years ago" was its industrial revolution, along with its noticable increase in standards of living and life expectancy. Africa's exploding population has less to do with increased life expectancy and more to do with increased breeding. See the above life expectancy graph for proof of this. Life expectancy in Africa has plummetted over the last 20 years, all the while, the population has markedly increased. This leaves only one possible explanation: increased births per capita.

With the exception of South Africa and Egypt, it is arguable whether most of Africa has even reached a primitive level of industrialization. By insinuating that Africa is similar to European levels of progress 100 years ago, you are saying that in 100 years, Africa will be as developed as Europe. I wouldn't bet on that.

Because you're idiotically mistaking sexual promiscuousness for having a large family.

Like I said before, when the majority of African kids (as witnessed by the staggering number of orphans in Africa) do not know their father, then "by civilized classification", those kids are most likely the result of an act of sexual promiscuity. Or maybe having 'one nighters' in Africa is not promiscuous, if that is the angle you were going to take... I'm sure African sexual promiscuity is more loosely defined than what westerners are used to, and I bet kids born to dead beat, absent fathers is quite acceptable and normal in Africa.

[Wolfman]

Moreover, I have never heard of a case where African society or individual African governments have ever encouraged increased births per capita

Society doesn't mean government.

But this is irrelevant, because the single defining aspect of, "Europe 100 years ago" was its industrial revolution, along with its noticable increase in standards of living and life expectancy

Bingo. This is about half of what I'm talking about.

Africa's exploding population has less to do with increased life expectancy and more to do with increased breeding.

Which is an aspect of the first and second stage of development.

By insinuating that Africa is similar to European levels of progress 100 years ago...

Which it is

you are saying that in 100 years, Africa will be as developed as Europe

And this is where you demonstrate that you don't know what I'm talking about, but are still trying to argue against me. While I do find entertaining, maybe you should swallow you're foolish pride and ask me what I'm talking about when I say development stages.

[politburo player]

Me:

Africa's exploding population has less to do with increased life expectancy and more to do with increased breeding.

Which is an aspect of the first and second stage of development.

A plummeting life expectancy is an aspect of some sort of incremental development? South Africa's population is not even growing because so many people are dying from preventable, sexually transmitted disease! That doesn't sound like progress!

Explain that!

[Jackal]

What exactly are you saying? What needs to be salvaged? It seems like you are supporting the preservation of Afrikaner culture, and then you go on to advise that he cooperate with the "Brits" (as if Afrikaners don't cooperate with other white South Africans already). And what do you mean by taking radical action? As a white South African, I am sort of disturbed by such strong language coming from a Cuban-American (if I remember correctly) who appears to have a very archaic view of South African society.

Well my post was mainly about Afrikaners because he stated that he was an Afrikaner. I support the preservation of white culture in South Africa. I said he should cooperate with "Brits" in order to not let any sort of Afrikaner nationalism get to his head because Afrikaners (or Brits) can't do it alone. By radical action I mean taking South Africa back and giving it to the white people. Have whites (especially farmers) not been targeted hate crimes by blacks? I've read a few articles online (I think a few on here) about blacks trespassing on white, law-abiding farmer land to beat, rob, murder, and/or rape them.

And exactly how is keeping in touch with his Afrkaner roots going to improve South Africa? Don't you think it would be more useful if he focused on trying to fight corruption, or trying to bolster the opposition's strength in parliament, or maybe even becoming an industrial tycoon of some sort? Believe me, I have nothing against Afrkaner culture, I just think it makes more sense that if he wants to help South Africa, he would help South Africa.

Keeping in touch with his Afrikaner roots would probably not directly improve South Africa but that is not what I was aiming at. I am of Basque descent and as the years progress on, less and less Basques speak the Basque language and the culture is eventually being dismantled due to a lack of preservation. Perhaps it was my emotions/frustrations of the Basque situation coming out, but I would not like to see the Afrikaner culture lost. All those things you listed are important and I would wholly support those things. Just understand that my rant about him keeping in touch with his Afrikaner roots are for him and his Afrikaner people as a culture, not South Africa as a nation.

[Le Rouge]

With the exception of South Africa and Egypt, it is arguable whether most of Africa has even reached a primitive level of industrialization.

The Songhai? The Swahili kingdoms? You do realize the Africans independently developed metallurgy?

[politburo player]

You do realize the Africans independently developed metallurgy?

So they made spears... what do they have to show for it?