[politburo player]

Rhodesia seems like an idyllic little country. I thought I would post these rare photos for the enjoyment of those who are curious about what southern Africa seemed like a couple short decades ago. I was surprised by how calm, safe, and CLEAN Salisbury looks!!!

[Le Rouge]

Salisbury looked like this 15 years ago. And all those people enjoying themselves appear to be one skin color.

[Igor Antunov]

You missed the photos of the slums of the seggregated black population. These photos show an idillic apartheid, white-run colonial outpost, indeed.

[politburo player]

You missed the photos of the slums of the seggregated black population. These photos show an idillic apartheid, white-run colonial outpost, indeed.

There are native Africans in these photos, you just do not accept them because they do not 'dominate' the scenery. Do you think countries like Zimbabwe are not 'just' until the whites are kicked out and UN helicopters start dropping sacks of grain? What does it take for you liberals to consider an African country successful? A complete absence of white Europeans???

Seriously, what does it take for you nation wrecking liberals to be satisfied? Do we all have to be playing in the dirt and living in huts like our distant ancestors?? I bet your average Rhodesian native ate better than his 2010 Zimbabwe contemporary. This can be backed up with a mountain of statistics.

[Dr House]

Anglo-Africans are hardly native. Afrikaners are, but Rhodesia wasn't an Afrikaner country.

[Kaspar]

House is right, most whites weren't living in present day Zimbabwe until the late 1890s and after. If I remember correctly, the white population was never more than 8 percent of the country's total population, which is less than even South Africa.

However, I'd have to argue that you can still be a native of Zimbabwe while still being white. I mean, I was born and raised as a Zimbabwean. Of course at the same time, the mere fact that a person can be a white Zimbabwean native shouldn't justify minority rule or legitimacy to preferential white treatment, as politburo player seems to think.

There are native Africans in these photos, you just do not accept them because they do not 'dominate' the scenery.

I don't think he 'accepts' your implications from the photos because there's a total of two blacks in all the photos you posted. If you disagree with the fact that there was racial segregation and government-sponsored white empowerment in Rhodesia, than you have some serious catching up to do.

What does it take for you liberals to consider an African country successful? A complete absence of white Europeans???

First of all, you can drop the word liberal. You throw that around a little to much. Instead of rhetoric let's have intelligent debate please.

Secondly, to answer your question, what people want to see in a successful African country is economic empowerment for the majority of its population. White minority rule in Rhodesia and South Africa only empowered a small portion of the population, the whites. Therefore, these countries are failures. The vast majority of these countries' populations remained poor and impoverished.

I bet your average Rhodesian native ate better than his 2010 Zimbabwe contemporary.

This is correct. But that statement doesn't justify minority rule. It helps to give illegitimacy to Mugabe's rule, but the mere fact that Mugabe is a terrible president and dictator doesn't justify a minority rule system that treated people unequally according to their skin color.

I was surprised by how calm, safe, and CLEAN Salisbury looks!!!

And this was during the height of the Bush War, Rhodesia was hardly calm and safe.

Try not to learn the history of a nation by looking at a few photos.

[politburo player]

I don't think he 'accepts' your implications from the photos because there's a total of two blacks in all the photos you posted. If you disagree with the fact that there was racial segregation and government-sponsored white empowerment in Rhodesia, than you have some serious catching up to do.

Of course, Kaspar, you would not approve of the racial hegemony in these photos unless the races shown were exactly proportional to the entire country. So politically correct you are. Bottom line, the streets were clean, without garbage, homeless, and the usual sights and smells you would find in an average African city with a tiny white population.

Here, take this picture for example. You would never find a white woman wearing an open blouse milling about the streets of modern day 'Harare' by herself. She would be too afraid of getting raped by one of Mugabe's boys.

Secondly, to answer your question, what people want to see in a successful African country is economic empowerment for the majority of its population. White minority rule in Rhodesia and South Africa only empowered a small portion of the population, the whites. Therefore, these countries are failures. The vast majority of these countries' populations remained poor and impoverished.

I use the word "liberal" too much in describing those who topple successful economic systems, and you use the word "empowerment" too much when talking about the wealthy class or disadvantaged.

This is correct. But that statement doesn't justify minority rule. It helps to give illegitimacy to Mugabe's rule, but the mere fact that Mugabe is a terrible president and dictator doesn't justify a minority rule system that treated people unequally according to their skin color.

Mugabe does the same thing you dislike so much (treat people differently according to skin color).

So, if you had to choose...would you want:

Racist government "A" without famine and mass starvation - everybody has something to eat

~or~

Racist government "B" with famine and mass starvation

[Kaspar]

Of course, Kaspar, you would not approve of the racial hegemony in these photos unless the races shown were exactly proportional to the entire country. So politically correct you are. Bottom line, the streets were clean, without garbage, homeless, and the usual sights and smells you would find in an average African city with a tiny white population.

No, I do not approve of racial hegemony in this pictures because it is the direct result of the racist policies of a minority government.

Bottom line, shoving garbage behind a door isn't accomplishing anything. The room may look nice, just as you say Salisbury looks nice, but eventually that garbage will start piling up and then you'll have a serious problem. And the Rhodesian government did have a serious problem, they got kicked out of the country before the decade was through.

I use the word "liberal" too much in describing those who topple successful economic systems, and you use the word "empowerment" too much when talking about the wealthy class or disadvantaged.

Why don't you actually respond to what I say instead of just avoiding my point altogether?

Racist government "A" without famine and mass starvation - everybody has something to eat

~or~

Racist government "B" with famine and mass starvation

I choose neither. What you don't understand is that by not choosing A, you aren't inherently left with B. You can have a majority government without famine, economic decline, etc. I said no to Smith, and I say no to Mugabe. The fact that history played out in Mugabe's favour doesn't mean that it's destined to be that way.

Basically, your post was just avoiding all my points again. Again, you need to brush up on you communication skills. I'm tempted to give you another definition of the word communication but I don't want to appear patronizing.

[politburo player]

I choose neither. What you don't understand is that by not choosing A, you aren't inherently left with B. You can have a majority government without famine, economic decline, etc. I said no to Smith, and I say no to Mugabe. The fact that history played out in Mugabe's favour doesn't mean that it's destined to be that way.

Kaspar, you are an idealist. As with most idealists, you fail to acknowledge the reality and extent of what is possible in this world.

There has yet to be an option other than "A" or "B". There has never been a "touchy feely" white regime in power in Africa, and there has yet to be a black African regime that doesn't resemble in some way the likes of Idi Amin. The decadence of Jacob Zuma's harem and the mass orders of BMW's and Mercedes by most of the black SA government, in spite of hunger and AIDS, proves this.



Note: this image should not be interpreted as off topic. It directly relates to the discussions at hand.

[Alchemy]

There has yet to be an option other than "A" or "B". There has never been a "touchy feely" white regime in power in Africa, and there has yet to be a black African regime that doesn't resemble in some way the likes of Idi Amin. The decadence of Jacob Zuma's harem and the mass orders of BMW's and Mercedes by most of the black SA government, in spite of hunger and AIDS, proves this.

How then would you explain the ramapant corruption under the mostly white led Bush administration?

[Dr House]

Bottom line, shoving garbage behind a door isn't accomplishing anything.

The logical conclusion of that argument is... a little disturbing.

[politburo player]

How then would you explain the ramapant corruption under the mostly white led Bush administration?

For once, you say something I kind of agree with!!! Even though you are comparing apples to oranges, I applaud your will to forge into a new sphere of discussion. I have said previously on this forum, I agree with 60-70% of Bush's policies. Of course being a South Afrikaner you could give a rat's ass about my opinion of the Bush administration.

I don't want to drive this thread off topic but I will congratulate your candid remark to my Idi Amin comment...

[ThereBeDragons]

That's like taking a picture of the wealthiest district of Pyongyang and concluding that North Korea is a pretty decent country.

[Dave]

North Korea probably isn't that bad. I would assume it has far less noise pollution and no obnoxious commercialism at all. Work is guaranteed, but the downside of course is the occasional food insecurity. I suppose the cult of the Kims would be a bit weird. I hope to visit before the state disappears and it becomes like everywhere else in the world.

[politburo player]

[Deleted]

Maybe Kaspar would rather go down with the sinking ship. Or, maybe his views will change once milk, eggs, and meat become scarce. Maybe it will take something more... I don't know what it will take, given that he has already been robbed or mugged more than once down there, and he seemed perfectly OK with that. His testimony brings up an interesting point that has been mentioned in other forums, that many former Mandela supporters are in denial about the country they let go. After all, the ANC would never have come to power were it not for white liberals...

[Kaspar]

[Deleted]

If I remember correctly, this is not the first time you called me a race traitor. So is every white that opposed white minority rule in Rhodesia and Apartheid a race traitor? I can understand where I get the honorable distinction of being extraordinaire, considering that I grew up in Rhodesia, but that must mean there are millions of traitors in your race due to their support of the dismantling of minority governments.

How can you stand being part of such a traitorous race? Is this some racial defect whites have?

I don't know what it will take, given that he has already been robbed or mugged more than once down there, and he seemed perfectly OK with that.

Getting mugged is fairly common throughout the world. Not everyone in this world enjoys crime levels equivalent to those in the United States.

And cute picture politburo player. Do you honestly expect me to take you seriously?

[politburo player]

Getting mugged is fairly common throughout the world. Not everyone in this world enjoys crime levels equivalent to those in the United States.

And cute picture politburo player. Do you honestly expect me to take you seriously?

Just remember, I will be thinking about you a few years from now when Malema orders his goons to "burn the white traitors" out of "RRRevolutionarrrry land".

Maybe I will light up a Cohiba and sip a rum and coke while I watch CNN news clips of whites being herded out of their neighborhoods by AK-47 toting goons. But then again, you will probably support the blacks in this endeavour.

[Dave]

If I remember correctly, this is not the first time you called me a race traitor. So is every white that opposed white minority rule in Rhodesia and Apartheid a race traitor? I can understand where I get the honorable distinction of being extraordinaire, considering that I grew up in Rhodesia, but that must mean there are millions of traitors in your race due to their support of the dismantling of minority governments.

I am not sure whether I would apply the term when white rule was still in effect. There was a sense that a colored government would not necessarily be bad for whites, and indeed it was not initially, and that the white government was not sustainable. In that case it would be a question of motive. If one was motivated by strategy, then no. If one was motivated by liberal considerations of equality, then absolutely.

Today there can be no question that anyone who continues to hold a position in favor of the transition to colored rule is a race traitor, in light of what has happened in Rhodesia and indeed in many other African states which formerly had white governments.

How can you stand being part of such a traitorous race? Is this some racial defect whites have?

It stems from the white trait to be able to form trusting relationships with strangers and outgroups relatively easy, along with the white trait to moral universalism. These traits are a dual-edged sword. They benefit us in allowing us to build complex communities and relationships not predicated upon ethnic nepotism, but in this globalized world it also threatens our extinction. The good news is that the degree of colored Stockholm Syndrome is inversely correlated with the tendency to have children, so this problem is self-correcting. The bad news is that with the overwhelming dominance of liberalism today along with the large numbers of skraelings in the white heartlands mean that we may not have enough time, in which case we will disappear as a race, leaving only the Asians of China, Korea, and Japan to carry the light of technological civilization.

[politburo player]

It stems from the white trait to be able to form trusting relationships with strangers and outgroups relatively easy, along with the white trait to moral universalism. These traits are a dual-edged sword. They benefit us in allowing us to build complex communities and relationships not predicated upon ethnic nepotism, but in this globalized world it also threatens our extinction. The good news is that the degree of colored Stockholm Syndrome is inversely correlated with the tendency to have children, so this problem is self-correcting. The bad news is that with the overwhelming dominance of liberalism today along with the large numbers of skraelings in the white heartlands mean that we may not have enough time, in which case we will disappear as a race, leaving only the Asians of China, Korea, and Japan to carry the light of technological civilization.

Dave,

Your flowery diatribes about the fall of white civilization are quite touching, but you are seriously putting way to much thought into this. It's much simpler than you think. The fall of white governments (and even white influence) in Africa have only resulted in plummeting agricultural production, life expectancy, and standard of living, as well as a dwindling supply of whites to run whatever industry still exists. If current trends continue - and if Malema gets control of South Africa - a big "if", I can assure you that not only will most whites flee, but the domestic black population will start to decline... South Africa's 49 year life expectancy will drop to the mid-30's (Zimbabwe levels) and the absence of competent farmers will cause Armageddon-like famine. Millions of South Africa's poorest will die. In Africa, [cut], as we have seen time and time again, in Uganda, the Congo, and especially in Zimbabwe, a country that lost a quarter to a third of its population in the years following 'white flight', half to famine, and another half to migration.

Maybe after the "strong arm African dictator" model of government fails, and populations are halved, African governments will realize that they should stop hating on whites so much and just let them do their thing.

[kingbee]

I'd post propaganda pictures of how great Berlin was during WWII, but it would be a bit weird, quite false, and utterly misguided.