[U184]

This was prompted by the poll: Should we intervene? created by godshumbleson Content of poll:

With the recent uprisings in North Africa do you believe it is time the west sent forces over there to occupy the country? Having forces over there would allow for stability and lower the chances of more revolts in neighbouring countries.

Forced Unification of Africa, offshoot of: Should we intervene?

Send in, Xe Services (Blackwater) have them go in as several smaller groups, into several regions. Have them secure mines and major services and at least one mid sized defensible city per region. Starting in Central Africa and spiraling out, as areas are secured.

Bring in the UN Peace keepers, to hold the Cities once taken and then bring in the Red Cross and support services. Bring in the Corps of Engineers and other like groups, to take care of temporary shelters, water and military support structures. Compel the Catholic Church to send aid, in the form of man power, to help care for the injured and the sick.

Then bring in corporate big wigs from the EU and the USA, to run said mines and services, 75% of income goes to the effort and 25% to the enterprise. With an agreement that said entities will continue to receive a small percentage, for say 5 years, after the conflict has been resolved.

Put out a call to all the people to get: health care, employment and to join the People's Army for the Restoration of Democracy. (CAR) Allow the freedom forces that are already large militia groups, in the new structure, but redeploy them throughout the effort so there is no command structure left and thus, no chance for corrupt groups to use the effort for their own agenda.

Central and North Central Africa, is already embroiled in conflict, and is ready for peace. 16 countries in Africa are at war or have major unrest, and that does not factor in roving bands of marauders.

There are several million refuges in these areas, and at least 25% are able bodied males of age to fight. 250,000 to 500,000 people fighting for peace in their country, with full International support, should be enough to take care of business.

After all is said and done, integrate the African Armies into equal parts, for each Country and turn control over to the African Union.

Here is a list of countries in Africa that have democratic governments: 9 of 52 Countries>
Ghana
Mauritania
Mauritius
Sierra Leone
Togo
Zimbabwe
South Africa
Botswana
Namibia

[Thunderhawk]

There are a lot of vested interests in the status quo. There will be wide spread and varied resistance to the foreign intervention over the violations of their autonomy and the apparent selling out of their country to corporate interests. The potential for local and opportunist corruption by those helping and local allies would be huge, it would happen over and over.

[U184]

That vested interest is the MAIN problem. Take those foreign parties, with said interest, to the World Court and set an injunction, keeping them out of Africa until the proceedings have come to a close. That should give the Nations wanting peace and the effort a good head start, before those parties can come back in and stir crap up again, and when they do, just repeat the above process.

[Thunderhawk]

Take those foreign parties, with said interest, to the World Court

How? Which of the world powers will support such action against themselves and the other world powers? Many of the foreign parties have local connections/allies, will you be taking those locals too? Leave them and such indifference allows future alternative collaboration and opportunism, prosecute them too and you will be seen as the same kind of interloper as the ones you are ousting.

[U184]

How? By claiming that the corporate interests are creating and fostering unrest. There are 9 Countries with Democratic Governments and the African Union, those parties would be taking these foreign interests to the World Court.

As for the selling out of the African Nations. They are already for sale, this at least, would give them the ability to take a unified control over their own domain.

[mordechaj]

Men honestly your idea reminds good old practice of colonialism. What the hell makes us believe that "we "know better then "them " whats good for their countries? "We' west are cause of their trouble and long lasting suffering with our practice to support any dictator if licking west ass.Do you realize what mess we put ourselfs with EU and All west economy? Did you realize west world is crambling,our sphere of influence getting still smaller,west put itself in stupid wars /with big pleasure of russia and china/ and yet we are still playing game of glory pride . Still dreaning about building bigger empire. Wake up, ROME is burning...... I m afraid people of african countries will decide about their own fate,they have very strong weapon we dont possesed any longer. RELIGION. I am afraid fire will spread to other arab nations and then god help us. Maybe one day soon we will see finnaly arab unity and thats will be last chapter in west masterfull history.

[U184]

Why do we get involved? Because "they" ask, for help: protection, food, clothes, medicine, clean water,etc. "They" being some 30 odd Countries in Africa and the African Union, that is already in place.

Why do I think "we" know better than "they" do? Because they have had 1000's of years to figure it out and have FAILED. So what, allow millions to die because "they" have the right to do so? I don not think that would be in "their" best interest and is not humanitarian in nature.

Lets entertain your, less than comprehensible, argument. (There was no mention of building an empire, Rome has gone a long time past. I spoke of helping them obtain control of their Country not "take" it)

Lets face it, you want this and they want that, but it comes with a price. So, let us help ourselves. All nations mind their own business. We all draw out, all aid, support, forces and MONEY to any and all countries and put any aid we want to give just to the United Nations.

That way each Country, has what it has earned, for good or ill.

Like the unification of Africa, Arab unity is a joke. There has been plenty of time to find peace, make compromises and become HUMAN. However blood is freely spilt, Governments remain chaotic and temporary and personal rights are a misnomer.

Rail against the "West" all you want. Yelling about the "western devil" as the Arab world commits atrocity after atrocity is...well, just what I would expect.

Try this: Install some running water, sewer systems and put real floors in your homes, instead of dirt. Learn to make glass for your windows, feed your starving population and educate your people. Then police your own dam Country and eradicate those who slaughter and terrorize because they CAN. Place a stable Government in power for even one decade and then you might become civilized enough to unite.

By then, one would hope, there would be no reason to eradicate those people in the west, because you may learn by then, that westerns seek peace, stability and equal human rights. Just as everyone else in the world SHOULD.

[mordechaj]

Sorry been to harsh,now as you explain yourself your idea makes more sense,but still you living in the dream world.

Why do I think "we" know better than "they" do? Because they have had 1000's of years to figure it out and have FAILED. So what, allow millions to die because "they" have the right to do so?

West always treated africa like personal eldorado and still continue to act so. Did you realize how many civilazations in africa were wipe out by resources hungry west? We should change first our attituede to look on africa like banch of kids who need policemen with big stick.

We all draw out, all aid, support, forces and MONEY to any and all countries and put any aid we want to give just to the United Nations.

UN? Under whose influence.Recent UN,whore of the west and USA? Finnancial support would end same way as for so many years. In bank account of dictators and their friends....

Rail against the "West" all you want. Yelling about the "western devil" as the Arab world commits atrocity after atrocity is...well, just what I would expect.

Arabs who commit atrocities you talking about, are who? Mubarak,Saddam Hussein,Osama bin Laden? Most of them monsters been put in the power and stay there for many years by support of west,while we speaking bullets and tear gas benn used on egyptians,and guess who supplyed it to Mubarack? Who supply chemicall weapons to Saddam, where bin Laden got his trainig...? West must change its approach to africa and arabs if want to achieve anything. You cannot push on anybody your values,your way of living and runnig society.. Them countries have to evolve to stage to adopt your ways beacause they are inferior then their own. Only way is to stop supporting dictators,help democratic progres and finnaly start arabs and africans take as a serious partners in economy dealing,stop stealing their resources and then we can talk about progress and real help. But now i am dreaming. This will never happen,as west is run on profit, not on seaking peace and prosperity for everybody ,it will never change until our fall.

[U184]

This will never happen,as west is run on profit, not on seaking peace and prosperity for everybody ,it will never change until our fall.

Be thankful that the west runs on money, if we did not we would not be able to aid those in need. If we were not seeking prosperity "for everybody" why on earth would we spend BILLIONS every year helping everyone? Take a look at this thread and see what we really do...The Real EVIL: That IS the USA

[Zyx]

KFlint, with all due respect, you misunderstand world politics.

I think, with regard Africa, looking into Patrice Lumumba's life would enlighten your shortcomings.

In short, Patrice Lumumba was one rallying for African independence in the Congo. So the Belgians, backed by the UN and US, assassinated him in brutal fashion. Since then the Congo has been in misery. The West firstly fabricated a civil war and after Lumumba's death, installed brutal dictators. Beside this, before Lumumba came into power, the Belgians ran one of the more brutal occupations in human history and grew tremendously rich though Congo remained destitute.

So to put everything in perspective. The UN is not an ally of Africa and U.S. 'aid' to Africa hurts Africa.

You write that Africans had thousands of years to make civilization and haven't. I should remind you of the Yoruba people who made incredibly unique art. What happened was eventually Europeans came to trade slaves and these spectacular artists were sold off in chains. You should think "Which is civilization? The artist or the enslaver?"

[U184]

The past is an important tool, when used to learn from ones mistakes. The present is the "tell all" and regardless of past civilizations, this is the here and now.

Africa and every other Country on Earth, has had time to raise themselves up from the ashes of their past, shrug off the chains that bind, and move on.

[Zyx]

The past is an important tool, when used to learn from ones mistakes.

True, but the past tells us that Western intervention is bad. Think about the contrast between a civilization specializing in art and sustenance and a civilization specializing in destruction and exploitation.

What can the West teach Africa?

Africa and every other Country on Earth, has had time to raise themselves up from the ashes of their past, shrug off the chains that bind, and move on.

But you do not understand. The U.S. is in Africa today running amok. It's in the Arab world today running amok.

Reread mordechaj, the Egyptian government is armed by the U.S. but the Egyptians are starving. Do you understand? The solution is not the West. You point out aid but think for a second what you demand: exploitation. You want Africans to work for your benevolence in tearing apart their countries. Think about that.

[U184]

How would helping the people of Africa to unite against subjugation tear Africa apart? Exploitation, how so?
What can the West teach Africa? The list would take several pages...

[Zyx]

Exploitation, how so?

You keep emphasizing that they would need to pay for it. You then said 75% of the wealth of Africa should go to those foreign entities. You wrote this, mate.

The list would take several pages...

Why do you think this?

You do not seem to get why the West is so wealthy.

Over 80% of the World's most precious metal, Coltan, is in the Congo. Think about that.

[U184]

You keep emphasizing that they would need to pay for it. You then said 75% of the wealth of Africa should go to those foreign entities. You wrote this, mate.

No I said 75% of what came from the few mines other production sites that were being used as slaver camps would go to the EFFORT and that only 25% would be used to pay all the people involved with helping, I only even said that because corporations would not be likely to do things at a loss...

You do not seem to get why the West is so wealthy. Over 80% of the World's most precious metal, Coltan, is in the Congo. Think about that.

What on earth does that have to do with the things the west could help with or teach the people of Africa?

[Zyx]

I only even said that because corporations would not be likely to do things at a loss...

First off you wrote "slaver camps." Just think about that.

Second off if it's Africa's wealth why do these corporations get it?

What on earth does that have to do with the things the west could help with or teach the people of Africa?

The Western advantage is one through intervention, not ingenuity. All that we have is what we have because we stole it.

True that computers are a product of the West, but the materials for the computers are in Africa and the means of getting those materials today is "slave" labor. Look up how Coltan is collected.

The West has nothing to offer to those who would only want to return to their farms.

What can you offer a farmer with no land beside her land?

[U184]

If they want others to help, in the way I suggested, that help would come at a cost. You may also have noticed (or NOT) that I have pointed out the need to remove ALL foreign controlling interests from African soil...

You make a point..I address it...you do not follow through and bring up another point or return to the old one.
I get that you have a strong feeling on the matter, however repeating your self and expecting a different outcome is a waste of time.

You have made several mistakes and or misconceptions about what it is I suggest and the why it may be beneficial to read what I first posted and the full thread as well, if we are to continue this debate..

[Zyx]

Ok. I think that Africa should develop its self-sustainability before it develops foreign sustainability. Why do you disagree? So to speak, why should we concentrate on securing mines rather than the land? Don't you think that it's more important for Africans to eat rather than mine minerals for the West?

[U184]

I think that Africa should develop its self-sustainability before it develops foreign sustainability. Why do you disagree?

I do not disagree. I however do not see Africa becoming self sufficient while under the control of world wide foreign interests. At this point Africa is being raped and not even getting a kiss, before, or after. What I suggest is a short term agreement, that allows Africa to regain its independence, peace and sovereignty.

So to speak, why should we concentrate on securing mines rather than the land? Don't you think that it's more important for Africans to eat rather than mine minerals for the West?

The mines, and other areas are where there is foreign interest, not just western interest. The marauders use this to terrorize the locals, corrupt government officials use their military in the same manner...thus why the need to remove foreign control.

Foreign interest will not stop, nor will the world wide demand for Africa's natural resources. The best thing Africa can do is gain control of their country and leverage a deal that is in their best interest, that was the whole point I was making.

We are on the same page. I think, maybe, you might have assumed I was ignorant, on the evils done to Africa and was motivated by selfish capitalistic politics. I am rather well versed on the subject and want nothing but the best outcome for Africa.

I am a realist, and as such, see there are only a few ways that Africa can become free and self sufficient, at least anytime soon. That being the case, Africa would need real help, not bits and pieces but real, lasting help.

[Zyx]

The thing is that you continuously appeal to bringing in more Europeans. Why not simply organize the Africans John Brown style?

Bringing in Europeans doesn't help Africa unless it's completely selfless.