[canchin]

Hmmm!

Reading through this thread was interesting. I was going to take some quotes and reply to them, but there are just so many filled with speculation, disinformation, the occasionally scattered media-virus...that it would take a post so long that nobody would bother reading it.

There is one aspect though that can be dealt with, and perhaps that should be the "Why do you hate us."

I am not Chinese, even though I have lived in China for 20 I would never insult Chinese people by trying to claim I am.

But perhaps my living here for so long - since before the situation in 1989 which, by the way, did not begin and end on the 4th of June and which has been so vacuously misrepresented in the media from many other countries by those who were NOT THERE, and regardless of what seems to be some sort of self-granted superiority complex that allows those who know less than nothing about the time to continue to bring up their lack of the truth of the situation as if it would somehow develop into truth - but perhaps that does give me a perspective different from those that have lived in China for a couple weeks, months or even a couple years.

Since I can speak and understand Putonghua and can read a fair bit - although my writing of Hanzi sucks - and came here for the express reason that I knew I was being lied to by the Canadian govt (where I'm from), and the American govt., and the govt.-controlled media in both countries (no sense trying to tell me that the mainstream media in N. America is not govt. controlled, it is, and the control is all the more immoral and unethical because it is a "soft" and hidden control. If the mainstream media doesn't toe the American or Canadian party line censor themselves, they suddenly find themselves "not invited to the party" and that's a fact from someone whose background IS the N. American media) - then maybe I have some information.

Let me just say this - da*n, even when I try I end up writing too much! - anyway, here's what I see as a salient point between, say, the so-called "West" and China:

In Canada and America, the most backward (to me) concept of: the individual is more important than the nation" is paramount while in China, the concept of: the nation is more important than the individual" is the main concept.

Nobody in China really cares if backward - viewed from my eyes anyway - social systems exist in the so-called "West" but for any westerner to demand that China must accept, wholesale and complete, what is already a failed political or social system from ANY other country, before China can essentially call herself a nation, is, to me, racism of the most heinous kind.

To do so not only shows hatred, it shows hypocrisy, self-aggrandizement, a quite delusional superiority complex, and perhaps more importantly - great fear.

When I do see, hear of read, people vomiting out the usual prattle of: China must do this, China must do that, why doesn't China do things our way, our way is best for China, or the popular I was in China and it wasn't at all like it was back home - it is difficult to not get angry...and I'm not even Chinese!

How dare anyone from any other country demand that China "obey" the dictates of any foreign power? China is a sovereign nation and one that has friggin' cities that have been in existence longer than the majority of the so-called "western" countries. China has friggin' cities that have populations greater than many foreign countries. Canada has 30 million people, California has 30 million people; Chongqing has 30 million people.

This could go on and on, but I did say I would "try" to be brief, so closing to await a fresh coffee and perhaps a reply.

[zglobal]

The amount of misinformation about China on western forums is quite remarkable. It's strange because I would rarely comment on another country unless I had at least some first hand experience and understanding.

And yet, we see time and again that westerners not only post what they know nothing about but show a conceited arrogance in the process.

I've been in China many years now.
Give me the Chinese people any day.
I left the pompous know all, know nothings behind.

[Mike Powell]

The amount of misinformation about China on western forums is quite remarkable. It's strange because I would rarely comment on another country unless I had at least some first hand experience and understanding.

And yet, we see time and again that westerners not only post what they know nothing about but show a conceited arrogance in the process.

I've been in China many years now.
Give me the Chinese people any day.
I left the pompous know all, know nothings behind.

My collegue once said to me that the reasons that most of the western countries misunderstood China most the time is because they're not recognise Chinese contribution in human history or to ignorant to try to understand their culture's origin for at least or simply, fear of the Chinese/Oriental populace will rob away their economy priviledge.

Here's a conspiracy theory although I don't much evidence to proof it, the general idea of opium sales to China by British is because they want to make huge profit, but some theory has suggested that British themselves know the Chinese were as good as Briths both politic and commerce therefore they used the opium to drug the populace to become incompetent in the long run, thus making their policy unstoppable later on. Well, the British started the Opium War and sadly, China lost.

East India Company, perhaps the world's first and largest drug cartel and comes to opium trades.

[zglobal]

Mike.
People can be forgiven for not knowing history, after all it needs to be studied. However, to not understand one of the major countries in the world today is just plain ignorance.
I am a foreigner that first traveled to China in the mid eighties and I have lived here for many years.

The absolute, unadulterated misinformation and ignorance that is spewed forth about China, is remarkable. I never would have thought such stupidity could exist, let alone on a forum about political affairs.

Sad, very sad.

[SeriousCat]

The foolishness of the clash of culture, the idiot ideals of difference races simply because some look different to others - will be the demise of nationalism.

NB: The above quote has been edited for spelling.

One thing for China to consider is this: empires rise with tolerance. The opposite is true as well. China relies heavily on foreign expertise and educated Chinese coming back after studying abroad. Deng Xiaoping referred to it as an asset stored abroad. Without the help of the West, the current PRC would have never been able to advance to its current prosperous position. Nationalism, particularly in extreme cases, is almost always self-destructive and can even lead to elements of fascism.

Perhaps one thing that in everyone that feels not good about China, sinophobia. This phenomenon of fear has existed since the ancient time in Asia and sadly, reach to Europe and American populace.

When Germany emerged as a unified nation before World War One, the other great powers were afraid. Suddenly a new power had emerged that would inevitably alter the power balance in the region. Whilst Germany had explicitly stated its intentions of a peaceful rise to statehood (before it was a collection of Germanic princedoms) the ensuing war shattered that perception. Whilst I do not think that China wishes to wage war with other states, I do believe that its growing clout, both political and economic, should not be underestimated. China can be dangerous and is a threat, but every threat is an opportunity in disguise. It will be up to individual sovereign states to decide whether they wish to view China as a potential rival, partner, or enemy. A states fear of another nation being a threat can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This fear alone has caused some dark side in Asia, Europe, America and Australia histories. Chinese across the globe sometimes, were treated like a "disease" than a human being. Chinese Coolies were once viewed as vampires that will devour the society in the foreign countries until some politicians fear and ignorance has applied some anti-Chinese racial policy that happened inside a country that champions democracy.

Chinese coolies were around in a time of European and American colonialism; there's a political cartoon on Wikipedia showing each of the great powers carving out a piece of the China-pie. This fear of foreign states is prevalent in China and is frequently used by the party and by citizens to instil nationalist fervour. The Great Wall was not only a building, but a symbol of Chinese perceptions of foreigners. It was not fear but intolerance that led Imperial China to close its door to foreigners and international trade for hundreds of years, only to open up their gates and discover they were no longer the great civilisation of the world. These historical events would have been significant in shaping the perceptions of Chinese today.

A word from the fictional Star Wars character Master Yoda, fear is a power of dark side because fear itself can becomes anger. And as a Chinese in Malaysia myself, I do hope that this phenomenon of fear will not cloud the other nations' leader judgement.

Star Wars has all the answers to life, even love:

"Don't close the blast doors... to your heart." - Unnamed Storm Trooper

[Mike Powell]

Mike.
People can be forgiven for not knowing history, after all it needs to be studied. However, to not understand one of the major countries in the world today is just plain ignorance.
I am a foreigner that first traveled to China in the mid eighties and I have lived here for many years.

The absolute, unadulterated misinformation and ignorance that is spewed forth about China, is remarkable. I never would have thought such stupidity could exist, let alone on a forum about political affairs.

Sad, very sad.

Like I said, it doesn't have any proof of it. Just a theory from unknown source I got, wish I can remember that.

Conspiracy or not. Trading opium to others is considered a drug dealing. And East India Company at that time got lots of opium business in the east, therefore its no different than the modern day's Columbian drug cartel.

[Mike Powell]

Chinese coolies were around in a time of European and American colonialism; there's a political cartoon on Wikipedia showing each of the great powers carving out a piece of the China-pie. This fear of foreign states is prevalent in China and is frequently used by the party and by citizens to instil nationalist fervour. The Great Wall was not only a building, but a symbol of Chinese perceptions of foreigners. It was not fear but intolerance that led Imperial China to close its door to foreigners and international trade for hundreds of years, only to open up their gates and discover they were no longer the great civilisation of the world. These historical events would have been significant in shaping the perceptions of Chinese today.

Although Great Wall of China was built to fend off foreign/nomadic tribes, but if you look back around two millenias ago, China is an empire that had established trades with Roman Empire and other civilization as well along with her famed Silk Road.

In early 15th century, China got her another opportunity to establish and monopolise the sea route from East China Sea all the way to Arabian region. Well, its an unfortunate event that was started by pro-Confusian court members that rejected this ambitious project. And the pro-Confusian members' thought that trade won't benefit China since some of Confucian's idea that had conservative thoughts on trading. Soon after the Emperor died, the pro-Confusian members seize the opportunity to destroy every pieces of documents and manuscripts and establish laws to ban any kind of trading, just to strengthen their own power in the court. And since then, China close her door and remains so in the next few centuries.

Well, those pro-Confusian members had done enough to retain their power in the palace. But their action also results of China's backwardness. As a consequence, China in the end squahed by eight nation alliance that captured Beijing twice therefore China were sliced to bits by these powers. Perhaps those Ming Dynasty's pro-Confusian members should really proud what they did.

[SeriousCat]

Although Great Wall of China was built to fend off foreign/nomadic tribes, but if you look back around two millenias ago, China is an empire that had established trades with Roman Empire and other civilization as well along with her famed Silk Road.

In early 15th century, China got her another opportunity to establish and monopolise the sea route from East China Sea all the way to Arabian region. Well, its an unfortunate event that was started by pro-Confusian court members that rejected this ambitious project. And the pro-Confusian members' thought that trade won't benefit China since some of Confucian's idea that had conservative thoughts on trading. Soon after the Emperor died, the pro-Confusian members seize the opportunity to destroy every pieces of documents and manuscripts and establish laws to ban any kind of trading, just to strengthen their own power in the court. And since then, China close her door and remains so in the next few centuries.

Cultural Perceptions Played A Part Too
There are certainly notable exceptions, such as the famed Silk Road. During the expedition of the "treasure fleet" led by Zheng He, the political atmosphere at home changed considerably. The Confucian factions sought to expand their powers, but this was considered acceptable to close the doors to China from trade because it was perceived that the outside world consisted entirely of barbarians and nomads, with nothing of value to trade. Although this wasn't true, the sentiment and rhetoric, coupled with extreme nationalism and bigotry, made the rise of the Confucian factions possible. Consequently, all treasure ships were destroyed and records burnt. It would be foolish for China to encourage nationalism.

A Similar Parallel
On a side-note, nationalism is rising in the U.S. and protectionist policies are on the rise. This will ultimately harm employment in the U.S. in the long-run by tying down resources in inefficient industries, causing industries where the U.S. has a comparative advantage to suffer. China will contract if it engages in the same protectionist schemes.

[Mike Powell]

Cultural Perceptions Played A Part Too
There are certainly notable exceptions, such as the famed Silk Road. During the expedition of the "treasure fleet" led by Zheng He, the political atmosphere at home changed considerably. The Confucian factions sought to expand their powers, but this was considered acceptable to close the doors to China from trade because it was perceived that the outside world consisted entirely of barbarians and nomads, with nothing of value to trade. Although this wasn't true, the sentiment and rhetoric, coupled with extreme nationalism and bigotry, made the rise of the Confucian factions possible. Consequently, all treasure ships were destroyed and records burnt. It would be foolish for China to encourage nationalism.

A Similar Parallel
On a side-note, nationalism is rising in the U.S. and protectionist policies are on the rise. This will ultimately harm employment in the U.S. in the long-run by tying down resources in inefficient industries, causing industries where the U.S. has a comparative advantage to suffer. China will contract if it engages in the same protectionist schemes.

My college lecturer has once told me that Nationalism that started by fear and ignorant will be disaster.

If we look at the idealogy, Nationalism do have its noble cause especially when the country is under attack by invading enemy. In fact, Nationalism can make a person stronger both mind and body. Like Patriotism, Nationalism also encourage a person to be loyal to his/her country.

The dark side of Nationalism however, is that when it idea itself gone too far to control, it can let to many abusive results such as forced property nationalisation, "close door" diplomatic policy and suppression on basic human right. And most of the time, Nationalism encouraged conservative though, and conservatives hate changes or face the fact and they always will.

Confucian idea if we look carefully, it doesn't teach us to remain close ourself to the outside world. Well, sadly the Ming Dynasty's court members at that time were fundamentalists, well you know what mean.

I do hope that U.S.A. will learn the mistakes that commited by Japan, Nazi Germany, Eastern Bloc nations and China itself, for their neo-conservative passion will not cloud their long-run judgement.

In my dark side however, I do hope that will happen because in my darker side I do want to see what's the outcome and how ugly will U.S. be if they too, became like the countries that I mentioned. As my country and my surrounding nations were quite sometimes, victims of American's propaganda.

[Locke13]

I believe we have a right to express our patriotism when our country has clearly been insulted. There is no denying that China, or rather the Chinese people with enfysis on the population rather than the government, has been looked down upon. That Caffarty guy watshisname (i don't watch that much news to be honest)has clearly humilliated China and all this Tibet business is clearly just a oppurtunity to take a poke at China. How come nobody cared before the Olympics and why the sudden wave of critisism from the whole of the west when it became news? I think that JMJX has been a but paranoid in saying that the government is involved in some synchronised attack on China with the media, but the fact is Westerners are too comfortable with looking down upon China. Maybe we do have a sensored media and a strict government but that doesn't mean you can just attack us. I'm not saying you don't have the "right" to as free speech does give the media the right to insult China but we also have the right to express our national pride and maybe Mr. Powell, we will turn to the "dark side" as you put it. But it will not be out of fear and ignorance, it will be out of anger, though i'm not saying that China should go to war with anybody. War is never good. However, if that day should come, undoubtedy we will be blamed once more for starting it instead of it being the effect of your cause.

Someone's comment a while back on how "less posts like these" (or something like that) will stop people from hatting china was particularly angering, and it's a pity to see JMJX began discussing news articles and gradually fade away from this thread.

As for the question "Why do you hate us?", hate might be too harsh a word. What I want to know why you people take such liberty at insulting us and poking us when you see such oppurtunities like the case with Tibet and when will you stop cause the lions inside the cage are getting quite annoyed

[JFaulkner]

The Chinese have a right to show their national pride - I don't think anyone is too bothered about that, so long as it doesn't blow up into open conflict.

It's not just China though which bears the brunt of Western criticism (although China might get a large proportion of it due to its size, increasing economic and political role in the world, and because it is the year for the Olympics there). Muslim countries have a special place in some critics' hearts, and African countries often get ridiculed for their problems (Zimbabwe being a recent big hit in the media). The West criticizes the West as well: U.S. foreign policy has taken a bit of a beating in some quarters.

As to why some in the West "hate" China: I don't but I guess some people have an ideal way of living which China doesn't fit into: therefore, they feel it is justified to criticize.

[Mike Powell]

I believe we have a right to express our patriotism when our country has clearly been insulted. There is no denying that China, or rather the Chinese people with enfysis on the population rather than the government, has been looked down upon. That Caffarty guy watshisname (i don't watch that much news to be honest)has clearly humilliated China and all this Tibet business is clearly just a oppurtunity to take a poke at China. How come nobody cared before the Olympics and why the sudden wave of critisism from the whole of the west when it became news? I think that JMJX has been a but paranoid in saying that the government is involved in some synchronised attack on China with the media, but the fact is Westerners are too comfortable with looking down upon China. Maybe we do have a sensored media and a strict government but that doesn't mean you can just attack us. I'm not saying you don't have the "right" to as free speech does give the media the right to insult China but we also have the right to express our national pride and maybe Mr. Powell, we will turn to the "dark side" as you put it. But it will not be out of fear and ignorance, it will be out of anger, though i'm not saying that China should go to war with anybody. War is never good. However, if that day should come, undoubtedy we will be blamed once more for starting it instead of it being the effect of your cause.

Like I had mentioned previously, if those so-called pro-independent liberalists really care about Tibet's plight then why now, why use the Olympic Game? Why don't they use this issue during events such as U.N. Conference and other forum meetings? And if we look back at the Dalai Lama, if he's really a peaceful icon then why he doesn't sound restrain to his fellow Tibetans?

And ask back to other countries, if their nation do have this kind of thing happening will their government too, use military or security members to suppress this riot? Regions like Basque, Kashmir, Chechnya, Western Sahara are too desire independence, and if they really are liberalist then why don't they support those regions as well?

My college lecturer once told me that freedom that preached out of discrimination is as bad as the dictator itself, or worse. Well, perhaps right now we can see the true colour of those pro-Tibet activists.

Pro-Tibet liberalists? No, more like a bunch of anti-China racists who just love to take advantage. At least China herself face the protest around the world during the torch relay like a "man". And history and fate will always judge fairly to those who face the odds bravely.

Another advice that my Buddhist teacher taught me about is that a few things in this world you shouldn't take advantage, and bravery is one of them. And those who take advantage on those virtue can be name, as cowards.

[Tailz]

Mike Powell wrote:

My collegue once said to me that the reasons that most of the western countries misunderstood China most the time is because they're not recognise Chinese contribution in human history or to ignorant to try to understand their culture's origin for at least or simply, fear of the Chinese/Oriental populace will rob away their economy priviledge.

I'd have to disagree. I think the issue swings both ways, I think both the West and the East suffer the same problem of misunderstanding each other to various degrees on various subjects. It is not just a "problem of the West." or an issue of the West not understanding China, but also China not understanding the west just as much.

But the one thing I do see on a daily basis, is a refusal of the Chinese to integrate into foreign societies.

Here's a conspiracy theory although I don't much evidence to proof it, the general idea of opium sales to China by British is because they want to make huge profit, but some theory has suggested that British themselves know the Chinese were as good as Briths both politic and commerce therefore they used the opium to drug the populace to become incompetent in the long run, thus making their policy unstoppable later on. Well, the British started the Opium War and sadly, China lost.

I thought the opium trade was quite simply all about cheep production sources and populations to sell it too. A parrell could be drawn to today of China being used as a cheep source of manufacturing (because of the low cost of living and very low wages), witht he west as the population to sell those produced products. The only difference being in comparison to the opium trade, the bulk of the produced product is destined for external sale.

East India Company, perhaps the world's first and largest drug cartel and comes to opium trades.

And what is the difference to other companies today, the products have changed but the goal is the same - to make the rich, richer.

Zglobal wrote:

Mike.
People can be forgiven for not knowing history, after all it needs to be studied. However, to not understand one of the major countries in the world today is just plain ignorance.
I am a foreigner that first traveled to China in the mid eighties and I have lived here for many years.

The absolute, unadulterated misinformation and ignorance that is spewed forth about China, is remarkable. I never would have thought such stupidity could exist, let alone on a forum about political affairs.

Sad, very sad.

But in contrast, it always amazes me the amount of misunderstanding many Chinese have of their own history. Almost as if the history books they learn from in school only record Chinese history starting with he cultural revaluation. But your using a very broard brush in your description, as I always see in these descriptions, each side simply blames the other..

"Oh its the west who does not understand China."

Blah blah, the misunderstanding is more than mutual.

Mike Powell wrote:

Conspiracy or not. Trading opium to others is considered a drug dealing. And East India Company at that time got lots of opium business in the east, therefore its no different than the modern day's Columbian drug cartel.

I completely agree, but can you judge the West (all of it) by the actions of one trading company from so long ago? Should we in the West then judge the China of today, by various periods in China's history?

Obviously, no.

Locke13 wrote:

I believe we have a right to express our patriotism when our country has clearly been insulted. There is no denying that China, or rather the Chinese people with enfysis on the population rather than the government, has been looked down upon. That Caffarty guy watshisname (i don't watch that much news to be honest)has clearly humilliated China and all this Tibet business is clearly just a oppurtunity to take a poke at China. How come nobody cared before the Olympics and why the sudden wave of critisism from the whole of the west when it became news? I think that JMJX has been a but paranoid in saying that the government is involved in some synchronised attack on China with the media, but the fact is Westerners are too comfortable with looking down upon China. Maybe we do have a sensored media and a strict government but that doesn't mean you can just attack us. I'm not saying you don't have the "right" to as free speech does give the media the right to insult China but we also have the right to express our national pride and maybe Mr. Powell, we will turn to the "dark side" as you put it. But it will not be out of fear and ignorance, it will be out of anger, though i'm not saying that China should go to war with anybody. War is never good. However, if that day should come, undoubtedy we will be blamed once more for starting it instead of it being the effect of your cause.

Attacks? What attacks? I've not heard about an bombs of missiles dropping on China from the West. I think you need to chill out, no one is calling for attacks upon the Chinese - but there is certainly criticism of some policies.. You can ether learn from it, or ignore it and blunder onwards. I certainly thing that China can learn a thing or two from the West, and that the West can learn a thing or two from China.

As for the question "Why do you hate us?", hate might be too harsh a word. What I want to know why you people take such liberty at insulting us and poking us when you see such oppurtunities like the case with Tibet and when will you stop cause the lions inside the cage are getting quite annoyed

Oh enough with the veiled threats, lions in the cage.... Please.....

See how much you don't understand the West, criticism of flawed policies is a critical part of improveing policies, it is your own misunderstanding of that Western aspect that results in you thinking that the criticism is an insult.

Now do you get how the misunderstanding of East and West is mutual? Not one sided as you think it is.

[Lone Gunman]

- Last time - nobody is criticizing the Chinese people - no government is doing so. The Chinese can and should be proud people, but we have a responsibility to learn the truth, and no longer allow ourselves to be dragged around and used by an authoritarian government that disallows freedom of speech, press, and thought. It's time for the CCP to leave China, and under the heels of a proud Chinese people.

Good statement. Now let's address some of the issues brought up by the thread starter.

1. I don't hate China for half the things you mentioned above. In fact I WANT China to become capitalist, I want to see China limit its population and I want to see China feed, clothe and educate as many people as possible.

2. China will be as much of a threat to world peace (as it becomes a superpower) as the United States and Russia. At the same time, due to the fact that China is an existing nuclear power like all the other members on the permanent UNSC, we probably won't have to worry about China getting into any scuffles with the USA any time soon. So is China a future threat? Some might say so. But is she any worse of a threat than the USA or Russia? Probably not. China is not exempt from hegemonic politics but it's certainly not going to blow the world apart like many people think. I can agree there.

3. It is important for us to understand that underneath it all there still remain many problems in China which need ironing it. First off, while the One Child Policy works well in principle it's hardly something which can be managed in a country where people sell their children for money or have girls aborted because they think men are more "productive" to society. Yes...because when China runs out of girls how the hell will it survive then? The point I'm trying to make is the CCP might have a lot of reactionary, quick-fix policies in place and these may be good in the short term but they need addressing in the long term as well. If they aren't addressed then China is going to be worse off.

Or what about the Chinese government's lack of transparency? This is a problem which many nations face but we're not talking about other nations are we? We're talking about China. Not America, not Australia, not Japan. CHINA. China DOES have problems and I think any Chinese who chooses to ignore there problems is being naive and overly patriotic. I would challenge any Chinese to prove their domestic media is as free and unbiased as Australia's for example.


I think China needs another revolution but this time a revolution of thought and principle. The only way the government is going to change is if people rise up and acknowledge the problems I have talked about. It's not good enough to feel in debt to the CCP because it's the only stable government the Chinese have ever had (on the Mainland at least). If a government fucks up then you as a citizen have every right to tell your politicians they are being dickheads, simple as that. Chinese people need to reform the system based on what they want and what they need. What we need is more young people to enter politics and the legal profession. I pray for a better China and I think it's time some Chinese patriots stopped criticizing the west (because let's face it our media hardly ever criticizes China as much as they do us) and got on with addressing the real issues. I would finish by posing this: if Chinese people stopped comparing themselves to the west and actually found solutions to many of the problems we've talked about then perhaps they'll be able to really stick it to us Aussies and Yankees because they will be able to present us with REAL changes (not just words).

Lone Gunman

[SeriousCat]

I believe we have a right to express our patriotism when our country has clearly been insulted. There is no denying that China, or rather the Chinese people with enfysis on the population rather than the government, has been looked down upon. That Caffarty guy watshisname (i don't watch that much news to be honest)has clearly humilliated China and all this Tibet business is clearly just a oppurtunity to take a poke at China. How come nobody cared before the Olympics and why the sudden wave of critisism from the whole of the west when it became news? I think that JMJX has been a but paranoid in saying that the government is involved in some synchronised attack on China with the media, but the fact is Westerners are too comfortable with looking down upon China. Maybe we do have a sensored media and a strict government but that doesn't mean you can just attack us. I'm not saying you don't have the "right" to as free speech does give the media the right to insult China but we also have the right to express our national pride and maybe Mr. Powell, we will turn to the "dark side" as you put it.

Only With Humility Can The Issue Be Solved
Patriotism can be moderate, whereas here we see a overly zealous China "thumping its chest in rage". However, China-bashing has almost become a 'national sport' in the U.S. From outsourcing to its growing military power, the U.S. doesn't treat China with the respect that it deserves, continually belittling this rising economy. I don't think the key to diplomacy is treating others poorly, especially if they are powerful enough to ignore you. Only by engaging on equal terms and by dispensing with the nationalism and bigoted moral superiority of both sides can the leader of the West, the U.S., and China discuss solutions to the problem. Then, with external pressure and a compromise between the Tibetan Government in exile and the Party the issue can be resolved. Anything less will not yield results.

My college lecturer has once told me that Nationalism that started by fear and ignorant will be disaster. If we look at the idealogy, Nationalism do have its noble cause especially when the country is under attack by invading enemy. In fact, Nationalism can make a person stronger both mind and body. Like Patriotism, Nationalism also encourage a person to be loyal to his/her country.The dark side of Nationalism however, is that when it idea itself gone too far to control, it can let to many abusive results such as forced property nationalisation, "close door" diplomatic policy and suppression on basic human right. And most of the time, Nationalism encouraged conservative though, and conservatives hate changes or face the fact and they always will.

Too Easily Manipulated
Unfortunately for patriots, nationalism can too-easily be twisted into that ugly side of patriotism. It is easy for the media and for the government to manipulate facts and perceptions to make a country seem as if it was under attack, and that alone would cause nationalism to flare up and transform from a peaceful and proud to violent ideology. I think there's a tremendous amount of disrespect to the Chinese when its own government thinks that the people are too simple-minded to be told the truth on the matter. The 14th Dalai Lama is not a terrorist (although the 13th was a vicious tyrant) and has never been an enemy of China. Rather he is a political dissident with opposing views on statecraft. By perpetuating the falsified fact that the Dalai Lama is inciting violence in Lhasa, China is not doing right by both its people and the people of Tibet. Remember that Tibet is currently a part of China and both regions should be able to talk things out in a civilised manner.

It's not just China though which bears the brunt of Western criticism (although China might get a large proportion of it due to its size, increasing economic and political role in the world, and because it is the year for the Olympics there). Muslim countries have a special place in some critics' hearts, and African countries often get ridiculed for their problems (Zimbabwe being a recent big hit in the media). The West criticizes the West as well: U.S. foreign policy has taken a bit of a beating in some quarters.

Drawing Parallels between the Perceptions of Muslims & Chinese
Absolutely. I watched a BBC debate a couple of weeks ago on how Muslims and governments can repair Islam's negative image in the West. It seems that many people think that Islam is violent and advocates terrorism, which simply isn't true. Islam is a peaceful, passive religion based on love and mutual respect. The fact that a very small minority of Muslims have committed violent acts does not indicate that the rest of Islam follows suit. However, in the Middle-East it is the minority that are committing these acts and following these twisted, violent ideologies, whereas in China the view that the Dalai Lama and Tibetans are violent 'degenerates' that aren't grateful of the advances China has brought to them is the majority. Chinese mass media is an affront to journalism, but then again every country has really irresponsible journalists (e.g. U.S. paparazzi).

Like I had mentioned previously, if those so-called pro-independent liberalists really care about Tibet's plight then why now, why use the Olympic Game? Why don't they use this issue during events such as U.N. Conference and other forum meetings? And if we look back at the Dalai Lama, if he's really a peaceful icon then why he doesn't sound restrain to his fellow Tibetans?

Olympic Games Coverage & Limits on the Dalai Lama's Power
Some good questions here. The Olympic Games was used because it receives the widest coverage in the most countries with the most citizens watching. The U.N. conferences don't garner as much media attention. They would be mentioned, but ultimately the reporting on the situation would be considerably smaller than if the protests happened during the Olympics. As to why the 14th Dalai Lama cannot restrain Tibetans, he is only the nominal head of state. He is the de jure leader, not the de facto leader. His power comes from influence, however that alone is not enough to stave off the ethnic Tibetans anger from being continually looked down upon and treated poorly. It would be a mistake to think of the 14th Dalai Lama as the 13th Dalai Lama, who was a religious monarch that, with the aid of Beijing, crushed his religious rivals to rise to power. The 14th (current) Dalai Lama is relatively powerless and is peaceful.

I thought the opium trade was quite simply all about cheep production sources and populations to sell it too. A parrell could be drawn to today of China being used as a cheep source of manufacturing (because of the low cost of living and very low wages), witht he west as the population to sell those produced products. The only difference being in comparison to the opium trade, the bulk of the produced product is destined for external sale.

The Opium trade is not a parallel to the situation now. Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest countries (or cities, depending on who you listen to) in the world. China is not low down on the add-value chain; some industries are on the low side of the chain. China is fast rising to eliminate the middle-man - there's more money to be made if you both design the good, manufacture it, and retail it yourself. If anything, China is moving up the add-value chain and aspiring to surpass the U.S. as the dominant economic power in the world.

It is important for us to understand that underneath it all there still remain many problems in China which need ironing it. First off, while the One Child Policy works well in principle it's hardly something which can be managed in a country where people sell their children for money or have girls aborted because they think men are more "productive" to society. Yes...because when China runs out of girls how the hell will it survive then? The point I'm trying to make is the CCP might have a lot of reactionary, quick-fix policies in place and these may be good in the short term but they need addressing in the long term as well. If they aren't addressed then China is going to be worse off.

Party Deeply Concerned about Demographic Imbalance
It didn't even work in theory. Now even the Party itself is "deeply concerned" about the long lasting effects of the demographic imbalance between males and females. A large minority of those in the Party are calling for the One Child Policy to be abolished.

Or what about the Chinese government's lack of transparency? This is a problem which many nations face but we're not talking about other nations are we? We're talking about China. Not America, not Australia, not Japan. CHINA. China DOES have problems and I think any Chinese who chooses to ignore there problems is being naive and overly patriotic. I would challenge any Chinese to prove their domestic media is as free and unbiased as Australia's for example... I pray for a better China and I think it's time some Chinese patriots stopped criticizing the west (because let's face it our media hardly ever criticizes China as much as they do us) and got on with addressing the real issues.

Media Freedom & Pollution
The freest media is on-line, but even the Chinese government have censored the net, thus giving the world a clear indication that China is not even minutely "free". It's true that China is overly sensitive about external criticism. With internal criticism they simply throw dissidents into jail. However, the hyperactive defences given by China over attacks on their honour (which seem more offensive than defensive) do relay the sometimes childish nature or not only Chinese politics, but world politics as well. Some criticisms are relevant, whereas some arr not. Having a free media is choosing who to listen to and who to ignore, and occasionally hearing something you didn't expect. A Chinese political dissident protested about the pollution in a Lake was jailed some years ago. Overseas criticisms of the pollution in China were suppressed or ignored. Now the Party faces the greatest environmental disaster in 20 years. Ignoring relevant criticism that could save China lives and money is just pure unadulterated stupidity. Such is some of the politics in the world.

Source: http://www.constantskeptic.com/index.ph ... -censored/

[NewEra]

2. China will be as much of a threat to world peace (as it becomes a superpower) as the United States and Russia. At the same time, due to the fact that China is an existing nuclear power like all the other members on the permanent UNSC, we probably won't have to worry about China getting into any scuffles with the USA any time soon. So is China a future threat? Some might say so. But is she any worse of a threat than the USA or Russia? Probably not. China is not exempt from hegemonic politics but it's certainly not going to blow the world apart like many people think. I can agree there.

I'm not going to support or refute any arguments here, simply because I believe that both sides can come up with legitimate arguments to create an endless debate.

However, I found this comment of your particularly interesting. Do you have any hard evidence (statistics or trends of the sort) to support your claim? It's natural for all of us to expect a stronger China to be more of a 'threat' to the world, but without data, the claim is an unscientific postulation.

I personally believe that China will have regional issues (namely, Taiwan, Mongolia, Okinawa) and will use her greater power to project her will, but cannot say for certain that she will go the same path as the United States and the former Soviet Union. If anything, I think that if my country, the United States, drops the antagonism and misconception towards the East, a strong China will not recreate a Cold War-like atmosphere. Of course, I could be wrong, but you seem to make a solid claim that I find unfounded in evidence.

Or what about the Chinese government's lack of transparency? This is a problem which many nations face but we're not talking about other nations are we? We're talking about China. Not America, not Australia, not Japan. CHINA. China DOES have problems and I think any Chinese who chooses to ignore there problems is being naive and overly patriotic. I would challenge any Chinese to prove their domestic media is as free and unbiased as Australia's for example.

This is a problem that China needs to address. However, the situation is not at a stand still and is in fact improving.

Also, I find it strange that you expect the Chinese to talk about not other nations, but themselves. You then follow that up with a challenge to compare China's media with Australia's.

I think this strange logic employed by you (unconsciously or otherwise) is an example of the unreasonable double standard inherited by many of the 'Westerners'. Many skeptics of China, like yourself, are tired of the Chinese pointing fingers at the problems of the West when, in fact, the PRC has numerous problems of her own. Thus, when Chinese people start to criticize Western societies, you ignore their criticisms and rebuke that 'the discussion is about China, not about the West. Just because we make errors doesn't mean you can.' This rebuke is certainly reasonable because it is true. Just because you killed somebody does not make another murderer's act any more justifiable.

However, the main problem arises when many Westerners conveniently compares the positive side of their society as a method of disparaging the Chinese way of running their country. The media, democracy, human rights, economic system, etc., are all common areas where Westerners attempt to compare and export their favorable traits to China. As you can imagine, this is an unfair practice, because to the Chinese people, Westerners are saying: 'we'll take your criticism of our country with a grain of salt. It's more important that you focus on your government. However, we're allowed to not only criticize your country, but to expect you to adopt our political ideas, economic systems, moral beliefs, and even our way of thinking.' China has made substantial contribution in the area of criticizing the West, especially in recent times with the rise of nationalistic fervor amongst domestic and international Chinese, but it is rare, if not impossible, to find any Western source seriously cite the Chinese criticism as a primary topic of discussion and feature it.

Without fixing these juvenile errors in debate, you can hardly expect the Chinese to take you seriously. One should stop looking at the West and China as a teacher-pupil relationship; a relationship with a knowledgeable dominator and an sophomoric subordinate. Orally, one may claim that they are intellectually beyond believing in this type of relationship, but really, by observing the nuances in the treatment of China in formal discussions, one can easily recognize that this claim is often questionable.

[Lone Gunman]

I think this strange logic employed by you (unconsciously or otherwise) is an example of the unreasonable double standard inherited by many of the 'Westerners'. Many skeptics of China, like yourself, are tired of the Chinese pointing fingers at the problems of the West when, in fact, the PRC has numerous problems of her own. Thus, when Chinese people start to criticize Western societies, you ignore their criticisms and rebuke that 'the discussion is about China, not about the West. Just because we make errors doesn't mean you can.' This rebuke is certainly reasonable because it is true. Just because you killed somebody does not make another murderer's act any more justifiable.

However, the main problem arises when many Westerners conveniently compares the positive side of their society as a method of disparaging the Chinese way of running their country. The media, democracy, human rights, economic system, etc., are all common areas where Westerners attempt to compare and export their favorable traits to China. As you can imagine, this is an unfair practice, because to the Chinese people, Westerners are saying: 'we'll take your criticism of our country with a grain of salt. It's more important that you focus on your government. However, we're allowed to not only criticize your country, but to expect you to adopt our political ideas, economic systems, moral beliefs, and even our way of thinking.' China has made substantial contribution in the area of criticizing the West, especially in recent times with the rise of nationalistic fervor amongst domestic and international Chinese, but it is rare, if not impossible, to find any Western source seriously cite the Chinese criticism as a primary topic of discussion and feature it.

Without fixing these juvenile errors in debate, you can hardly expect the Chinese to take you seriously. One should stop looking at the West and China as a teacher-pupil relationship; a relationship with a knowledgeable dominator and an sophomoric subordinate. Orally, one may claim that they are intellectually beyond believing in this type of relationship, but really, by observing the nuances in the treatment of China in formal discussions, one can easily recognize that this claim is often questionable.

You bring up some excellent points. I think there are however things China can still learn from certain western countries, but not the west in general. Given decades of going down the wrong path it stands to reason that China can look to western success stories for inspiration and/or guidance. Perhaps what I ignored and should have mentioned is China could even look to regional success stories as well (like South Korea overcoming dictatorship and becoming more democratic or even post-war Japan). I also understand that China's politics will have to be a reflection of its vastly unique demographics, we all know that governing the world's most populous as well as one of the world's most ethnically diverse nations is not going to be easy. So in that sense we should give China some concessions after all it's not going to be an easy task.

What I do still believe however is that there are elements within China that need to see what's positive about the west (and I don't mean copying weapons technology) and see how these positive influences can have a lasting effect on Chinese politics and the media. But it all comes down to the government really, are they willing to change? Will they make the necessary sacrifices to move towards democracy or a style of governance more reflective of the people's will? I think China would need to start slow and not rush things and I, like many, don't want to see China rush things like Russia. It should be taken slowly perhaps starting from a provincial level and then tentatively towards Beijing itself.

It's not going to be easy but I still think some Chinese (and I've talked to many radical ones personally) need to stop dodging these questions and problems and start facing the facts. I know there are many aspects of Australian or American or simply western society in general that have failed or have not been very positive either. There are inherent problems with democracy too, as well as isolated cases of media bias etc. I think the bottom line really is that in many other nations people have a choice. They have a choice of what they want to believe and what they want to reject but at the end of the day both sides of a debate are presented and the government can't step in, even if it dislikes some of the content. The problem in China is that the government, if they should take offence at certain material, generally have it banned or shunned or whatever.

Anyway thanks for your response. I believe the debate will continue for a long time yet but I'd like to say now that it's good to see these threads staying civil rather than becoming flame wars. So whatever anyone's stance, please, keep the threads clean so we can have a civil discussion.

Lone Gunman

[SeriousCat]

You bring up some excellent points. I think there are however things China can still learn from certain western countries, but not the west in general. Given decades of going down the wrong path it stands to reason that China can look to western success stories for inspiration and/or guidance. Perhaps what I ignored and should have mentioned is China could even look to regional success stories as well (like South Korea overcoming dictatorship and becoming more democratic or even post-war Japan). I also understand that China's politics will have to be a reflection of its vastly unique demographics, we all know that governing the world's most populous as well as one of the world's most ethnically diverse nations is not going to be easy. So in that sense we should give China some concessions after all it's not going to be an easy task.

China Is Learning - And So Is Everyone Else
China is learning from the West: they've been studying the military successes in Afghanistan and Iraq; the U.S. administrative government; and the U.S. and British economies. From technology to administrative ideologies, China is learning fast from the West. It's important to understand that China's greatest achievement, the switch to a capitalist system, is not a product of the West. If you talk to any of the expatriate businessmen in China or any economists that know about the region they will tell you Chinese capitalism is entirely their own. It bears little idealogical and practical resemblance to the system used in the West. The Western system would not work in the East; it would have to be adapted to the specific environment. Same goes for many of the "Western innovations" and successes: China has transcended their models and have sought to adapt them to their country. As for the statement about ethnic diversity, I don't think it's valid to point out ethnic diversity as such an issue, since China isn't exactly Austria-Hungary before the Great War.

What I do still believe however is that there are elements within China that need to see what's positive about the west (and I don't mean copying weapons technology) and see how these positive influences can have a lasting effect on Chinese politics and the media. But it all comes down to the government really, are they willing to change? Will they make the necessary sacrifices to move towards democracy or a style of governance more reflective of the people's will? I think China would need to start slow and not rush things and I, like many, don't want to see China rush things like Russia. It should be taken slowly perhaps starting from a provincial level and then tentatively towards Beijing itself.

Slow Pace of Political Reform
There's been a great movement in the Party over the past decade, which can be culminated in their unofficial motto: "evolution over revolution." Instead of making large, sudden, revolutionary changes the government would reform the country through small, incremental improvements. However, some loathe the speed of political progress. I for one would like to see some greater risk-taking on Beijing's behalf. The citizens are waiting too long to elect their officials, directly engage in their politics, and have their rights upheld.

[Tailz]

SeriousCat wrote:

Party Deeply Concerned about Demographic Imbalance
It didn't even work in theory. Now even the Party itself is "deeply concerned" about the long lasting effects of the demographic imbalance between males and females. A large minority of those in the Party are calling for the One Child Policy to be abolished.

The problem is not the One Child policy, but the societies preference for a Male child. Originally in the rural communities, the objective was for a male child because females were seen to be weaker and less able to "pull their weight" to help sustain the family (primarily their elderly parents). This also integrates with the family values of a male heir continuing the family name, plus the luck aspect of having a male child. If people simple had the children without preselection for the sex of the child, then the law of averages in child birth would balance out the division of males to female births.

If China didn't have the one child policy, then the average family size would again be large and China would over populate and literally eat itself to death. The one child policy was an attempt to stop rural families from having large numbers of children in order to work the farmland in order to provide for their elderly parents - in other words, population explosion to facilitate those who can no longer provide for themselves.

Apart from this, I pretty much agree with most of what you have written.

[Mike Powell]

China's one child policy do have its fare share of strength and weakness.

The good side of the One Child Policy is that the governement themselves can monitor the population much easier due to the strict family control policy. And One Child Policy can avoid catastrophic result such as over-population like happening in India presently. And over-population means higher domestic economy demand, in the end inflation soar in every turn and making everyone's life miserable. And miserable life can led to social unrest or worse, revolt.

The dark side of the One Child Policy however, is that when something happens such as earthquake, fire, war and other kinds of disaster, the family themselves will find very hard to replace their deceased child. And losing an only child in the family is the greatest grief a family will endure. There're some reports suggested that One Child Policy also spawned a negative culture within it. And this negative effect is since that the children themselves is the sole heir of the family, they became spoilt and later become a brat. Well, right now the Chinese government introduce the "Brat Camp" to the Chinese populace to re-educate their child.

Those who wish to criticise the One Child Policy perhaps should really consider this, if the Chinese government doesn't apply this rule to their people, just imagine that during post-Cultural Revolution period, thousands of refugees will pour into other countries. And not all countries like refugees staying in their country in a long time.

When China became over-populated you accused them causing famine and economic implosion. And when they apply the One Child Policy to control their population you started to criticise this policy is oppresive. One sincere word from me, use your head before you even start to criticise others.