[SolarCross]

I fully support Libertarians going off to the desert where they will almost certainly be killed by the locals. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh and don't the chaps who live there have any say when the almighty market comes knocking at their door?

Why be so nasty? Anyway I am not proposing an exclusively libertarian project rather a pan-anarchistic project, right and left anarchists and any other freedom lovers. It is not certain that the locals will kill us off or even just be hostile. I reckon we will be rather warmly welcomed once they get to know us.

The place is as about as empty as any land in the world outside of the polar regions and we will not need very much of it. There is no need to ask permission we won't be in anyone's way and will probably bring a great deal of benefit to the local economy. Whose permission did the locals ask for when they first arrived? You have the mind of a slave if you think you need to ask permission to do something that will cause no harm.

[Decky]

The place is as about as empty as any land in the world outside of the polar regions and we will not need very much of it. There is no need to ask permission we won't be in anyone's way and will probably bring a great deal of benefit to the local economy. Whose permission did the locals ask for when they first arrived? You have the mind of a slave if you think you need to ask permission to do something that will cause no harm.

The British empire should have hired you as minister for propaganda. You are right they should have no say and it will be for their own good anyway.

[mikema63]

When did you become such a property rights advocate that people can no longer use someone elses unoccupied land?

[SolarCross]

The British empire should have hired you as minister for propaganda. You are right they should have no say and it will be for their own good anyway.

When was the last time you asked permission to leave the house and walk down the street? The street is plausibly owned by someone, its developed. The desert is by definition undeveloped, like the sea, the stars, the air, the moon. Forget definitions the western sahara has a total population of around 500,000 in an area the size of New Zealand or Colorado. Most of that 500,000 are Moroccans and most of that 500,000 live in one city in the north. The rest is really, really empty. For those nomadic people that live in the desert will welcome another settlement where they can trade and get water.

Okay you are not an anarchist so your psychological need to get permission from the great lord trumps reason. But who is the great lord of the western sahara? The king of Morocco wants to be that lord but most of the locals don't accept that and no other states do either, nor do the UN. So it is silly even for a statist like you to beg for his permission. Okay forget the lords lets ask the people's permission. 500,000 people most of whom are Moroccans.. We should individually go and ask each and every one of those 500,000? Does that seem reasonable even to you a slavish permission seeker?

The locals would certainly have a gripe if we were claiming political dominion over the entire territory like the Moroccan monarchy but we would not be doing that. Maybe this is where you are confused.

[Decky]

You seem to be confused. I am not against this idea; I think it is wonderful.

I fully support Libertarians going off to the desert where they will almost certainly be killed by the locals. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Got to go and develop Africa it is not only a right but a responsibility.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

[SolarCross]

Poor Decky haunted by empire. You think I am proposing an imperialistic enterprise? Do you think only white people do empire and anything a white man does is empire? Do you think that pakistanis coming to the UK to settle are imperialists and mexicans going to the US are imperialists? Why would a bunch of anarchists of diverse ethnicities going to the sahara be imperialists?

[Decky]

Poor Decky haunted by empire. You think I am proposing an imperialistic enterprise?

Yep.

Do you think only white people do empire and anything a white man does is empire?

Nope

Do you think that pakistanis coming to the UK to settle are imperialists and mexicans going to the US are imperialists?

Why would a bunch of anarchists of diverse ethnicities going to the sahara be imperialists?

The rest of the world doesn't want your "free" market. If was the "free" market that let the British land owners export the Irish grain while the Irish starved.

[SolarCross]

You presume too much. I am not proposing an imperialistic enterprise. No one will be subdued by the sword, taxed, dispossessed, 'regulated' or robbed in any other fashion, not by us anyway.

You can't speak for the rest of the world. Anyone who doesn't want to trade doesn't have to. But people do like to trade, it is more civil than stealing. Giving is better than trading and I am sure at least the left-anarchists will do plenty of that.

[KlassWar]

To defend your Free Territory, you'd have to:

-> Organize all existing unions and coperatives at least to the point where they can plan common infrastructure and military strategy.
-> Create an enormous, all-pervasive, politicized militia, kept loyal by the activities of a cadre of dedicated anarchists.
-> Build and maintain an arms industry capable of supplying such militia. This will require resources, resources you MUST gather from the population of the Free Territory.
-> Crack down hard on statists and non-anarchists inside liberated territory, for the protection of the Revolution.


To an extent, through arduous, thankless, constant political work, agitation and shameless political propaganda, you could, always unreliably and partially, satisfy such needs through voluntary action and cooperation... But if the needs of the revolution mandated the use of force and coercion, even on a mass scale, a revolutionary would be morally obligated to employ them.

[Decky]

So you can only enforce Anarchism with a brutally repressive state. It's wonder your ideology hasn't collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions.

[SolarCross]

KlassWar is an old-school commie that is changing to Anarchism because Marxism is dead and Anarchism is where the action is these days but old habits die hard, be patient give him time to adjust.