[Devrim]

But a person who describes himself/herself as a Kemalist does not have to be either a rightist or a leftist. Kemalism is above those terms. I think a rightist can not be a Kemalist because it contradicts to revolutionism principle. So Kemalism is more likely to keep close to left-wing thoughts. But we just forgot that there is actually a '' centrist '' opinion. For example HEPAR describes themselves that way.

So I mean one can be a good Kemalist without believing in Socialism, we already have a principle that compensates that, called Populism. The world does not consist of two polarized ideologies and Socialism is not the only one that opposes to Capitalist/Imperialist policies. If you squeeze Kemalism in narrow terms it will not get a wide support from people.

Btw don't waste your breath talking about democracy to Beirut, I don't think he believes in Democracy, he said that those who vote for Kemalist parties should be counted as terrorist, so that's why I gave up to listen to him.

[nucklepunche]

But a person who describes himself/herself as a Kemalist does not have to be either a rightist or a leftist. Kemalism is above those terms. I think a rightist can not be a Kemalist because it contradicts to revolutionism principle. So Kemalism is more likely to keep close to left-wing thoughts. But we just forgot that there is actually a '' centrist '' opinion. For example HEPAR describes themselves that way.

I don't have much experience of Turkey apart from viewing it from abroad but my basic understand is this the vast majority of Turkish political debate happens along Kemalist lines. There are those who do not believe in Kemalism but these are seen as extremists and marginalized from the system. All major political parties agree on Kemalism, just disagree on the specifics.

I think it is similar to the USA. There are no parties with representation which question capitalism. Capitalism can be seen as the sort of defining American ideology in the way Kemalism is for modern Turkey. In spite of the blabber of Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck the Democrats do not oppose capitalism, they simply call for a capitalism with a few modifiers. The issue is specifics. There is only one socialist in the US Congress out of 435. I believe there are a handful of socialists in the Vermont legislature (where coincidentally the one socialist senator is from) not to mention Ron Dellums, Oakland, CA socialist mayor and a handful of others who are part of city councils in liberal cities mostly on the west coast. That's it though. Virtually everybody else with any serious power is an avowed capitalist. Of course I don't mention technocrats like me because our ideas are inherently anti-democratic.

I'm not saying Kemalism and capitalism are the same or that the USA and Turkish culture are the same, because they are not. Obviously there are some capitalist and more socialist Kemalists. Still I think it is similar in the sense that there is a "defining ideology" that most mainstream politicians adhere to, where there are few serious competitors who deviate from that line. In Turkey it is Kemalism, in the USA it is capitalism. Certainly socialism could be seen as the defining ideology of modern Nepal, which though being democratic most parties are either socialist or communist. This is not talked about much since Nepal is not a big player on the global stage. Few countries have this. It is possible to be a serious socialist in most European countries without being condemned as a traitor or hater of the country, whereas in America many will condemn you. It is only in a few pockets that socialists are accepted, like Bernie Sanders in Vermont. 90% of the nation is totally opposed to it at least in name (though I do think in practice we Americans are more socialist than we admit). I imagine in he Kurd and Armenian pockets of Turkey Kemalism is not dominant, but it is still dominant on the national scale.

[Devrim]

You've got the point indeed. Kemalism has been adopted as a common value among people. But most of them do not call themselves '' Kemalist '', but prefers '' Ataturkism '' which is the same way. Because Kemalism sounds like a more ideological for the people. I don't think there are more than 5 million people who do not accept principles and revolutions of Ataturk.

[CounterChaos]

Turks were invited to Germany. If Turks did not go and develop there as a strong work power potential, Germany could not be in this position today. Turks were an important contributor to German development efforts.

That is absolutely correct. I spent several years of my life in Germany and there were many Turkish people working and living there. Just recently I read that Germany has 500,000 skilled labor jobs available that they were having difficulty filling - they turned once again to Turkey to fill the need. Turkey and Germany have a long working relationship.

Devrim; like nucklepunche, I too don't have much experience with Turkey and her politics - your links however were very helpful. I'm retired military and I was very happy to see that your military supports this a well. In my opinion it is long overdue for Turkey to be more noticed in world affairs and opinion. We all know why the Turkish voice has been stifled over the years - for that I can only apologize for the ignorance of our people and the arrogance of our leaders. To be quite frank, the later I would rather slap.............

Anyway, I'm glad you're here - I'm learning stuff. Unfortunately, I don't have much to offer though............

[Devrim]

You are a retired military man, how great I see that most of people here are well experienced and I'm just a teenager lol

I know that American people are so open minded. I should say that I've learnt most of dirt of USA's leaders from my American friends. They deserve to be ruled by more honorable leaders who do not have any aims to trick the people.

I love dissidents, all over the world.

[CounterChaos]

I love dissidents, all over the world.

They come from all backgrounds and age groups Devrim. What I have discovered is that most of them have one thing in common - common sense..............

[anarchist6]

to quote emma goldman: What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels," said Dr. [Samuel] Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our time, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment in the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the honest workingman...

[anarchist6]

Kermalism is nationalist, which is just one step away from racism. It is nothing more than violence, i have no love for my" country, my faith is in human internationalism. Uniting the people of the earth against the parasitic statists, those who use the state for power wealth or pleasure.

[Devrim]

Kemalist nationalism has a different concept. The most important factor for national solidarity, national unity and national entity. It does not separate the people, but unifies and aggregates them under one national identity which will prevent discriminations.

As for Patriotism, there is nothing more natural than loving and working for the benefits of your own homeland.

[anarchist6]

patriotism is a vile mutation of tribalism, or the love of the family, local group, or tribe. When you take your town and love it there is reason for it, you know your friends, your relatives, the state takes this feeling and makes you extend it to people you don't know, will never know and don't have anything in common with, save that your parents fuked in the same geographical area, thats all patriotism is love of the place your parents, fuked.

[Devrim]

patriotism is a vile mutation of tribalism, or the love of the family, local group, or tribe. When you take your town and love it there is reason for it, you know your friends, your relatives, the state takes this feeling and makes you extend it to people you don't know, will never know and don't have anything in common with, save that your parents fuked in the same geographical area, thats all patriotism is love of the place your parents, fuked.

I can not expect any westerner to understand this feeling. Don't misunderstood, I just say that there is a different mentality there. So, you should not approach Turkish patriotism/nationalism with standard/simple definitions. My grandfathers spilled their blood to liberate this homeland, my grandmothers carried cannon balls on their shoulders to the fronts. That makes some sense. I'm ready to give up my life right now if the country would be invaded.

[anarchist6]

My grandfather died for the CNT in catalonia, as part of the Abe Lincoln Brigade. I have no love for the american empire, or any empire, or state. I hate all countries, nations and groups equally, i am an anarchist, the state is the enemy of humanity. I love my family, my town and my school, i don't see how why i should love a area ruled by one mafia. the Armenians, Iroquois, Zulu, Palestinians, Mexicans, Helvetians, Croats, Poles, and Basques died for nationalism.

[Devrim]

My grandfather died for the CNT in catalonia, as part of the Abe Lincoln Brigade. I have no love for the american empire, or any empire, or state. I hate all countries, nations and groups equally, i am an anarchist, the state is the enemy of humanity. I love my family, my town and my school, i don't see how why i should love a area ruled by one mafia. the Armenians, Iroquois, Zulu, Palestinians, Mexicans, Helvetians, Croats, Poles, and Basques died for nationalism.

'' The thing that makes the flags flag is the blood on them, the land becomes the homeland if there are people who die for it. '' Ataturk.

I see that you're an anarchist. You're against the state, order, laws etc. whatever. But rulers are temporal. The land is permanent. I'm loyal to those lands, not rulers. People do not die for simple ideologies. People die for their freedoms, independence, sovereignty. Because imperialist colonialist nations attempt to invade our lands for their benefits. They always have an eye on our lands. How can I not care about our lands when those imperialists threaten my lands ?

[anarchist6]

You haven't addressed my critique, i would fight and die for my town, not the park where i played as a kid, not even the house were i grew up, no i would die for the people in my town, my friends who i go to school with, my parents, my family. i would die for this the people who make this spot on the map, Fair Lawn. By extension i would die for the humanity not earth. I believe that we need to stop fighting over glorified gated communities, and start fighting for humanity. I don't oppose order, order i fully support order, which is why i oppose the state, the state creates chaos, in statism, one mafia is legitimized while other mafia are arrested. Look up gangland, these exist because the state prevents people from creating there own institutions and societies, if it did gangs would be dead long ago.

[Devrim]

We do not live in a pinky sweety world. Who would not like to live in a peaceful humanist world where there are no wars, fights, discriminations etc. but come to the reality. There are evil people in the world and they invade other countries to get their resources. If you do not care about your homeland, somebody who has an eye on your territories comes and takes it. We live in such a world where cruels dominate over, and we have to protect our home.

It is my duty because my grands did not fight for nothing. If they said '' Why should I take care of those worthless lands ? '' then I was going to live under british flag, probably speak british and live with british culture. So I'm not selfish, we have to leave a free, independent country to the next generation.

[anarchist6]

So people are evil, logically we should have people, who are evil rule over other people, such is the logic of statism.


democracy is 1 sheep and 2 wolves voting on dinner, republic's are sheep electing a wolf in sheeps clothing to the council on meals, anarchy is the sheep buying guns and setting up a mutual defense society

[Istanbuller]

What about the official language and Kurds' right to learn their own ancestral language in schools?

This problem is not only related to Kemalists. It's a constitutional problem. Nationalist are much more aggressive than Kemalists about this issue.

[Devrim]

So people are evil, logically we should have people, who are evil rule over other people, such is the logic of statism.


democracy is 1 sheep and 2 wolves voting on dinner, republic's are sheep electing a wolf in sheeps clothing to the council on meals, anarchy is the sheep buying guns and setting up a mutual defense society

Democracy is bad for undeveloped people so it can only work in a educated, enlightened and intellectual nations like Scandinavia. As for Statism, there are different kinds of Statism so our logic in Statism does not even resemble westerners understanding of Statism. So your definition is irrelevant actually.

[anarchist6]

The state is a monopoly on violence in a geographical area, statism can't allow people to set up systems they want, its like it or get out. In anarchism you can set up whatever system you like. Look at the armenian genocide, the holocaust, First Peoples destruction, rape of nanking, and the killing fields, those are the result of nationalism

[Devrim]

The state is a monopoly on violence in a geographical area, statism can't allow people to set up systems they want, its like it or get out. In anarchism you can set up whatever system you like. Look at the armenian genocide, the holocaust, First Peoples destruction, rape of nanking, and the killing fields, those are the result of nationalism

Statism exists to protect the people, its being used as a tool by evil people does not mean that it is a bad system.

1915 Armenian Events; it was a reaction to Armenians who used to apply terrorism and murder Turkish families with the support of Russians in the East. There was not a intentional genocide attempt. Nationalism is not on the stage there, but just a revenge feeling.

Holocaust, the official history says that it was done by a bloody mad nationalist dictator but in the background it was planned by capitalist-imperialist-colonialists who were looking for a way to persuade Jews to go to Palestine in order to establish the Israeli state there.

First peoples descruction, it was made by capitalist imperialist westerners to take their resources. Nationalism has nothing to do with it, but with money worshipping.

Capitalism, Imperialism and Colonialism are the main obstacles against peace in the world. This is what we should struggle against.

National-ism stands for uniting the country under one identity in regardless to their race. A person's hating a nation means that he is Racist. We Kemalists are the first ones who will set against discriminations against people who live inside our country. We are their assurance.

People are not so stupid to murder innocent people just for national feelings. They must have some benefits. Capitalists kill the people for money.