[Negotiator]

https://www.indianpunchline.com/glimpse ... n-ukraine/

There is a realisation today that the war is actually between Russia and NATO and that Ukraine had ceased to be a sovereign country since 2014 when the CIA and sister western agencies — Germany, the UK, France, Sweden, etc.— installed a puppet regime in Kiev.

I dont know if we can cover the whole time for sure, but yeah we know the USA clearly controlled the coup in 2014, we know that the USA immediately started pumping weapons and other military support into Ukraine, stopped by a short time by Obama (who told us we cant win in Ukraine) but restarted by Trump (who after all got constant pressure because people claimed he would be a russian agent), and we know that Ukraine can only keep going right now because the USA pumps enormous amounts of money into the country, right now at about 150 billion and counting. So the proposition that Ukraine doesnt completely depend upon the USA right now is simply riddiculous.

We also know that Zelensky, a jew and ethnic russian, ran on a promise to implement the Minsk agreements, but then he never did.

So yes, its very likely the USA kept control over Ukraine the whole time.

The fog of war is lifting and the battle lines are becoming visible.

I'm not aware of that. Fog of war stays about the same. Constantly you hear different numbers from different people of how the war is going.

The west of course, since the very first week of the invasion, constantly claims that Russia is losing the war, has lost the war, will be losing the war any time soon, if not tomorrow then the day after tomorrow, you just wait and see, you can start holding your breath for it, ...

But for example Col Douglas MacGregor thinks the russians have now mobilized a million soldiers, while others think its substantly less. Who the heck knows ? It seems like it would be reasonable for Russia to have a larger military force available to them than they officially admit.

Certainly, Russian President Vladimir Putin’s videoconference with the permanent members of the Security Council in Moscow last Friday and his meeting with Belarus President Belarus Alexander Lukashenko in St. Petersburg on Sunday become the defining moment. [...] There is no question that the two events were carefully choreographed by the Kremlin officials and intended to convey multiple messages.

That got completely ignored by the mainstream press, though.

Russia exudes confidence that it has achieved dominance on the battle front — having thrashed the Ukrainian military and Kiev’s “counteroffensive” moving into the rear view mirror. But Moscow anticipates that the Biden administration may be having an even bigger war plan in mind.

I really wonder what that one would be at this point, though.

At the Security council meeting, Putin “de-classified” the intelligence reports reaching Moscow from various sources indicative of moves to insert into Western Ukraine a Polish expeditionary force. [...]

Indeed, there is a long history of Polish revanchism. [...]

Nice.

More war !

Lukashenko said: “This is unacceptable to us. The alienation of western Ukraine, the dismemberment of Ukraine and the transfer of its lands to Poland are unacceptable. Should people in Western Ukraine ask us then we will provide support to them. I ask you [Putin] to discuss and think about this issue. Naturally, I would like you to support us in this regard. If the need in such support arises, if Western Ukraine asks us for help, then we will provide assistance and support to people in western Ukraine. If this happens, we will support them in every possible way.”

... Ukraine asking Belarus for help ? Against a NATO member ? Now wouldnt that be interesting.

[JohnRawls]

:eek:

https://www.indianpunchline.com/glimpse ... n-ukraine/



I dont know if we can cover the whole time for sure, but yeah we know the USA clearly controlled the coup in 2014, we know that the USA immediately started pumping weapons and other military support into Ukraine, stopped by a short time by Obama (who told us we cant win in Ukraine) but restarted by Trump (who after all got constant pressure because people claimed he would be a russian agent), and we know that Ukraine can only keep going right now because the USA pumps enormous amounts of money into the country, right now at about 150 billion and counting. So the proposition that Ukraine doesnt completely depend upon the USA right now is simply riddiculous.

We also know that Zelensky, a jew and ethnic russian, ran on a promise to implement the Minsk agreements, but then he never did.

So yes, its very likely the USA kept control over Ukraine the whole time.





I'm not aware of that. Fog of war stays about the same. Constantly you hear different numbers from different people of how the war is going.

The west of course, since the very first week of the invasion, constantly claims that Russia is losing the war, has lost the war, will be losing the war any time soon, if not tomorrow then the day after tomorrow, you just wait and see, you can start holding your breath for it, ...

But for example Col Douglas MacGregor thinks the russians have now mobilized a million soldiers, while others think its substantly less. Who the heck knows ? It seems like it would be reasonable for Russia to have a larger military force available to them than they officially admit.





That got completely ignored by the mainstream press, though.





I really wonder what that one would be at this point, though.






Nice.

More war !





... Ukraine asking Belarus for help ? Against a NATO member ? Now wouldnt that be interesting.

It is a Russian delusion. Basically Russia tries to use its own thinking for other countries. Explains pretty easily what is in Putins mind and his cronies mind. But thank you for telling us how Putins brain works, it explains a lot in the last couple of years for the average people who haven't been paying attention to things before the war.

[Beren]

Explains pretty easily what is in Putins mind

Partition of Ukraine perhaps?

[Potemkin]

Partition of Ukraine perhaps?

Let’s party like it’s 1795!

[late]

Ironic.

Yanukovych was a Putin puppet that went and hid behind Putin's skirts when the uprising threw the bum out.

There is a grain of truth, Ukraine struggled to become a country. At least until Putin started the second war against Ukraine. His scorched earth tactics in Russian speaking areas turned ethnic Russians against Putin..

The irony is that this war is the baptism of fire in which Ukraine united and became fully a country.

[Beren]

Let’s party like it’s 1795!

I guess the Poles would rather like to party like it's 1610. At least they'd like to have a Polish-friendly tsar in Moscow rather than to partition Ukraine with someone trolling them with Stalin.

[Rancid]

@Negotiator
what trash

Over and over.

BTW, you still haven't discussed the many ways in which I outlined how Russia has failed and is essentially wrong months ago. You just duck dodge weave, avoid, adn then follow up with more bullshit posts.

[late]

@Negotiator
what trash

Over and over.

BTW, you still haven't discussed the many ways in which I outlined how Russia has failed and is essentially wrong months ago. You just duck dodge weave, avoid, adn then follow up with more bullshit posts.

The Poles have done more for Ukraine, and Ukrainians, than any other country, if you factor in size and wealth.

The OP is ridiculous, but then that's true for most of his posts.

[Beren]

Ironic.

Yanukovych was a Putin puppet that went and hid behind Putin's skirts when the uprising threw the bum out.

There is a grain of truth, Ukraine struggled to become a country. At least until Putin started the second war against Ukraine. His scorched earth tactics in Russian speaking areas turned ethnic Russians against Putin..

The irony is that this war is the baptism of fire in which Ukraine united and became fully a country.

I wonder if ethnic Russians turned against Putin, but Russian-speaking Ukrainians definitely did. At the end Yanukovych also was an unpopular leader, he was unpopular even in Donetsk, from where he was and to where he fled from Kyiv and from where he finally had to flee to Rostov-on-Don in Russia. So it wasn't a coup, it rather was a revolt, supported or even triggered by the USA, which would have failed without massive country-wide popular support anyway, of course. So it wasn't the SMO with which Putin fucked it up in Ukraine, he just finalised the fuck-up and made it complete with it, although I'm sure he planned to do the same to Zelensky as what was done to Yanukovych. I guess he was supposed to flee to Lviv first, then to move to Poland, or else he'd have been simply assassinated perhaps. What I'd really like to know is if he was told by his services that it was an illusion and he just ignored them or he was misreported on the actual situation in Ukraine either deliberately or by mistake.

[Potemkin]

I wonder if ethnic Russians turned against Putin, but Russian-speaking Ukrainians definitely did. At the end Yanukovych also was an unpopular leader, he was unpopular even in Donetsk, from where he was and to where he fled from Kyiv and from where he finally had to flee to Rostov-on-Don in Russia. So it wasn't a coup, it rather was a revolt, supported or even triggered by the USA, which would have failed without massive country-wide popular support anyway, of course. So it wasn't the SMO with which Putin fucked it up in Ukraine, he just finalised the fuck-up and made it complete with it, although I'm sure he planned to do the same to Zelensky as what was done to Yanukovych. I guess he was supposed to flee to Lviv first, then to move to Poland, or else he'd have been simply assassinated perhaps. What I'd really like to know is if he was told by his services that it was an illusion and he just ignored them or he was misreported on the actual situation in Ukraine either deliberately or by mistake.

The Tsar’s advisers were telling him what they thought he wanted to hear, and the Tsar believed every word they told him.

[JohnRawls]

The Tsar’s advisers were telling him what they thought he wanted to hear, and the Tsar believed every word they told him.

Best case is you get fired, worst case is that you get poisoned or fly out of the window. The absence of any real informational feedback loop is one of the main problems of any totalitarian or authoritarian state.

[Beren]

The Tsar’s advisers were telling him what they thought he wanted to hear, and the Tsar believed every word they told him.

According to Wikipedia Putin was persuaded to invade Ukraine by a small group of his closest associates, especially Nikolai Patrushev (72), Yury Kovalchuk (72) and Alexander Bortnikov (71). According to some experts, Bortnikov (Director of the Federal Security Service) played a key role in Putin's decision to invade Ukraine.

70+ years old people, just like Putin himself. Bortnikov and Patrushev are also former KGB, just like Putin himself. Living in their own bubble they just wanted to do it anyways, I guess.

[skinster]

Yanukovych was a Putin puppet that went and hid behind Putin's skirts when the uprising threw the bum out.

Yanukovych was the democratically-elected leader of Ukraine until the U.S. installed coup that had fascists threaten to kill him, forcing him to leave.

BTW, you still haven't discussed the many ways in which I outlined how Russia has failed and is essentially wrong months ago. You just duck dodge weave, avoid, adn then follow up with more bullshit posts.

Quoted for near-future laughing at you when it becomes clearer to people like you that Ukraine has lost.

According to Wikipedia...

[late]

Yanukovych was the democratically-elected leader of Ukraine until the U.S. installed coup that had fascists threaten to kill him, forcing him to leave.

Russia did a lot to get him elected. After he was elected, it quickly became clear he wasn't interested in representing the interests of his people. The corruption was epic.

[Deutschmania]

@Negotiator , I don't entirely disagree with you. I even posted some videos outlining the nuances of the situation. It's just that , at the time at least , a moderator censored any take that wasn't in line with the black and white fallacy that Russia is bad and Ukraine is the innocent victim, and so removed them. I will repost the two videos below, if there is toleration for dissenting opinion now . In my view , the people in Ukraine , including the ethnic Russians in the Donbass region, should have the right to popular consent . Whether they want to be subject to Russia , Ukraine , or be their own nation should be entirely up to them, without any outside forces from Kiev , or Moscow subjugating them. Also, likewise, if the people of West Ukraine want to be annexed by Poland, and I rather doubt that they would, they should be allowed to exercise their popular will. P.S. In the interest of full disclosure, for what it's worth , although as a socialist republican I am against any form of monarchy , I am descended from , among others , the royal families of both Poland and Russia. Among my ancestors was Anna Jagiellon , and my 7th cousin 5 times removed was Alexander Romanov the First .

[noemon]

For decades and centuries Poland has been claiming Galicia. Most of Galicia is in Ukraine. Galicia is according to Poland an unredeemed Polish territory over which Poland has already gone to war against Austria, Russia and Ukraine.

It was in Galicia where the Austrian emperor first baptised himself and his subjects 'Ukrainian' and rallied against Poland. According to the Austrians the Slavic people should not be allowed to link up and so the Austrian plan was to make Galicia into a buffer zone between Austria, Poland and Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

If Ukraine was ever to be partitioned, Poland would be the first to claim Galicia.

[skinster]

Russia did a lot to get him elected.

Evidence for this conspiracy theory?

[late]

Evidence for this conspiracy theory?

Wow, for once you are correct.

Russians do Kompromat. They are the world's best at it, and they do it to thousands with the faint hope it will one day help.

Someone like him, obvious choice.

So, is it a conspiracy theory? Yeah, it is, but it's something that literally happens every day.

[skinster]

No evidence? As expected.

[Rugoz]

In my view , the people in Ukraine , including the ethnic Russians in the Donbass region, should have the right to popular consent . Whether they want to be subject to Russia , Ukraine , or be their own nation should be entirely up to them, without any outside forces from Kiev , or Moscow subjugating them.

There's no indication that there's a "popular consent" (majority approval presumably) for secession in any of the regions of Ukraine, to the contrary.

But for the sake of the argument let's assume the regions of Ukraine have the right to secede, a right you think should exist. It would not be legitimate for those regions to join a political entity where the right to secede does not exist (aka Russia). It would be like voting to abolish the right to vote. It may be legitimate for the individual to deny a fundamental right to himself, but not to the minority who disagrees or to all future generations.