[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Son of $&%@*!! ....no not directed at anyone here...just That I wrote this brillinat reply to this rubish post...but I accidentally closed it an dlost it all!!!...so now I have to rewrite it all...so bear in mind it won't be quite as good as what I had intended

Ok I'll start from the bottom...sine I remember what I said there...It went somethig like this...

Buhaha!!! What rubish...

I am sorry, I cannot find over 200,000 names of military leaders, please read this, it sums it up. I even have a link for you.

No no...give me the names of 10 of them than!!! Come on lazy ass...

See...some of us don;t use the "I read in my 5th grade history book" technique...some of US prefer FACTUAL historical evidence. USSR didn't EVEN have 200.000 officers...let alone 200.000 for Stalin to kill...LOL...total rubish...considering that the REAL number is now available in the Soviet Archives..

This is what the Soviet Archives say...so I don't want any more stupid posts saying hundreds of thousansd or any other numbers than these...becasue these are the ONLY numbers...

1937:

Arrested: 4268 persons
Expelled from the Army for Political Reasons: 6766 persons
Expelled from the Army for Moral Reasons: 1036
Expelled from the Army becasue of disease or physical dissabelment: 1933

Total: 13997...9.7% of the officer corp

1938:

Arrested: 3807
Expelled from the Army for Political Reasons: 716
Expelled from the Army for Moral Reasons: 2219
Expelled from the Army becasue of disease or physical dissabelment: 2350

Total: 10029...5.6% of officer corp

1939:

Arrested: 47
Expelled from the Army for Political Reasons: 158
Expelled from the Army for Moral Reasons: 215
Expelled from the Army becasue of disease or physical dissabelment: 1274

Total: 1694...0.6% of officer corp!!

And these are the numbers for officers removed for ALL reasons...Arrested number is only 8122 officers in those 3 years!!!


I hope you don't make a fool of yourself again by saying any other figure...


Ahh...I'll reply to the rest later...but rest assured what you have said there Kov is a bunch of rubish...just as this one bit about the officers was. You may have studied under Gorby...but that means nothing. Gorby was a big lier...he was saying he had studied the cases of 40 million dead...and yet when the archives were opened he couldn;t show us even one such case...he was pulling it out of his ass. There was a poster in the USSR of gorby...showing Stalin as a bone being thrown to the Soviet people. It meant Stalin was used by Gorbachiov as a bone to distract the Soviet people from the problems he was createing himself...that was all.

I lived under a "Stalinist" system...and I can tell you havn't the slightest idea what it even is.

You say Stalin build nothing...I say...those building you live in...those schools and universities you go to...those were build by who??? The Holy Ghost???

But I'll get back to you on that...don;t worry...I just don;t have time now. [/b]

[Kov]

Ah yes, the large 12 story flats built so that the majorty of the poor could manage to aford to live in them. They even cut costs by using acess radioactive material from atoic tests to mix in with the concreate.

Yes I have stalin to thank for all of that.

Also, thank you for finaly pulling up the "8122" officers killed. You of all people would shurly understand that governemnts lie. And yet in the same archives that you have dug such suporting data you come across personal letter of military leaders. Here is one name for you, Sergei Kirov.

Below is a letter from an high raning military offical that was faulcly acused of conspiracy against the government. In this letter he begs for faulse forgivness and his life.


" To the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR

On March 13 [of this year] the Military Tribunal of the
Supreme Court condemned me to death by shooting. I ask for
clemency.

My guilt before the party and the country is great, but I
have a passionate desire and, I think, enough strength to expiate
it.

I ask you to believe that I am not a completely corrupt
person. In my life there were many years of noble, honest work
for the revolution. I can still prove that even after having
committed so many crimes, it is possible to become an honest
person and to die with honor.

I ask that you spare my life.

March 13, 1938

[signed] A.I. Rykov



[stamp] True copy"

Here is a group of Communists that where sent to a Gulag, and much to their luck, where releaced after some time. They where all in the military and where convicted of being enemies of the people.

"To the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of
the All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik)

We appeal to you, asking you to pay a minimum of attention
to our request.

We are prisoners who are returning from the Solovetsky
concentration camp because of our poor health. We went there
full of energy and good health, and now we are returning as
invalids, broken and crippled emotionally and physically. We are
asking you to draw your attention to the arbitrary use of power
and the violence that reign at the Solovetsky concentration camp
in Kemi and in all sections of the concentration camp. It is
difficult for a human being even to imagine such terror, tyranny,
violence, and lawlessness. When we went there, we could not
conceive of such a horror, and now we, crippled ourselves,
together with several thousands who are still there, appeal to
the ruling center of the Soviet state to curb the terror that
reigns there. As though it weren't enough that the Unified State
Political Directorate [OGPU] without oversight and due process
sends workers and peasants there who are by and large innocent
(we are not talking about criminals who deserve to be punished),
the former tsarist penal servitude system in comparison to
Solovky had 99% more humanity, fairness, and legality. [...]

People die like flies, i.e., they die a slow and painful
death; we repeat that all this torment and suffering is placed
only on the shoulders of the proletariat without money, i.e., on
workers who, we repeat, were unfortunate to find themselves in
the period of hunger and destruction accompanying the events of
the October Revolution, and who committed crimes only to save
themselves and their families from death by starvation; they have
already borne the punishment for these crimes, and the vast
majority of them subsequently chose the path of honest labor.
Now because of their past, for whose crime they have already
paid, they are fired from their jobs. Yet, the main thing is
that the entire weight of this scandalous abuse of power, brute
violence, and lawlessness that reign at Solovky and other
sections of the OGPU concentration camp is placed on the
shoulders of workers and peasants; others, such as
counterrevolutionaries, profiteers and so on, have full wallets
and have set themselves up and live in clover in the Soviet
State, while next to them, in the literal meaning of the word,
the penniless proletariat dies from hunger, cold, and back-
breaking 14-16 hour days under the tyranny and lawlessness of
inmates who are the agents and collaborators of the State
Political Directorate [GPU].

If you complain or write anything ("Heaven forbid"), they
will frame you for an attempted escape or for something else, and
they will shoot you like a dog. They line us up naked and
barefoot at 22 degrees below zero and keep us outside for up to
an hour. It is difficult to describe all the chaos and terror
that is going on in Kemi, Solovky, and the other sections of the
concentrations camp. All annual inspections uncover a lot of
abuses. But what they discover in comparison to what actually
exists is only a part of the horror and abuse of power, which the
inspection accidently uncovers. (One example is the following
fact, one of a thousand, which is registered in GPU and for which
the guilty have been punished: THEY FORCED THE INMATES TO EAT
THEIR OWN FECES. "Comrades," if we dare to use this phrase,
verify that this is a fact from reality, about which, we repeat,
OGPU has the official evidence, and judge for yourself the full
extent of effrontery and humiliation in the supervision by those
who want to make a career for themselves. [...]

We are sure and we hope that in the All-Union Communist
Party there are people, as we have been told, who are humane and
sympathetic; it is possible, that you might think that it is our
imagination, but we swear to you all, by everything that is
sacred to us, that this is only one small part of the nightmarish
truth, because it makes no sense to make this up. We repeat, and
will repeat 100 times, that yes, indeed there are some guilty
people, but the majority suffer innocently, as is described
above. The word law, according to the law of the GPU
concentration camps, does not exist; what does exist is only the
autocratic power of petty tyrants, i.e., collaborators, serving
time, who have power over life and death. Everything described
above is the truth and we, ourselves, who are close to the grave
after 3 years in Solovky and Kemi and other sections, are asking
you to improve the pathetic, tortured existence of those who are
there who languish under the yoke of the OGPU's tyranny,
violence, and complete lawlessness....

To this we subscribe: G. Zheleznov, Vinogradov, F. Belinskii.

Dec. 14, 1926

True copy"


Here is some of Lenies' personal notes as well. Since Stalin was always there to act and expand on Lenies' ideals, is it not probable that he copied these same tactics??

"

Send to Penza
To Comrades Kuraev,
Bosh, Minkin and
other Penza
communists

Comrades! The revolt by the five kulak volost's must be suppressed
without mercy. The interest of the entire revolution demands this,
because we have now before us our final decisive battle "with the
kulaks." We need to set an example.

1) You need to hang (hang without fail, so that the public
sees) at least 100 notorious kulaks, the rich, and the
bloodsuckers.
2) Publish their names.
3) Take away all of their grain.
4) Execute the hostages - in accordance with yesterday's
telegram.

This needs to be accomplished in such a way, that people for
hundreds of miles around will see, tremble, know and scream out:
let's choke and strangle those blood-sucking kulaks.

Telegraph us acknowledging receipt and execution of this.

Yours, Lenin

P.S. Use your toughest people for this.

..................................
TRANSLATOR'S COMMENTS: Lenin uses the derogative term
kulach'e in reference to the class of prosperous peasants. A volost'
was a territorial/administrative unit consisting of a few villages and
surrounding land."

Here is a text about the problem in Ukrane during Stalins regime...

"The dreadful famine that engulfed Ukraine, the northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River area in 1932-1933 was the rssult of Joseph Stalin's policy of forced collectivization. The heaviest losses occurred in Ukraine, which had been the most productive agricultural area of the Soviet Union. Stalin was determined to crush all vestiges of Ukrainian nationalism. Thus, the famine was accompanied by a devastating purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia and the Ukrainian Communist party itself. The famine broke the peasants' will to resist collectivization and left Ukraine politically, socially, and psychologically traumatized.

The policy of all-out collectivization instituted by Stalin in 1929 to finance industrialization had a disastrous effect on agricultural productivity. Nevertheless, in 1932 Stalin raised Ukraine's grain procurement quotas by forty-four percent. This meant that there would not be enough grain to feed the peasants, since Soviet law required that no grain from a collective farm could be given to the members of the farm until the government's quota was met. Stalin's decision and the methods used to implement it condemned millions of peasants to death by starvation. Party officials, with the aid of regular troops and secret police units, waged a merciless war of attrition against peasants who refused to give up their grain. Even indispensible seed grain was forcibly confiscated from peasant households. Any man, woman, or child caught taking even a handful of grain from a collective farm could be, and often was, executed or deported. Those who did not appear to be starving were often suspected of hoarding grain. Peasants were prevented from leaving their villages by the NKVD and a system of internal passports.

The death toll from the 1932-33 famine in Ukraine has been estimated between six million and seven million. According to a Soviet author, "Before they died, people often lost their senses and ceased to be human beings." Yet one of Stalin's lieutenants in Ukraine stated in 1933 that the famine was a great success. It showed the peasants "who is the master here. It cost millions of lives, but the collective farm system is here to stay.".. "

Spetz, I can go on all day. Please feal free to pick at whatever you like, I also look forward to your comments about my other posts. I find it a bit arogant that you put personal ideology infront of the views and experiances of those that saw it first hand.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Ahh...clearly you have no idea what you talk about...just babel on and on by taking bits and pieces from wherever you like.

And when someone PROVES to you what the real numbers are (the officers for example)...you just say "governments lie"...

NO SHIT...I could then say people lie and end this discussion right now.

But I wont.

Genious...look at the date on that report about the prisons...1926...at that time...USSR had just come out of the Civil War...it was a mess.

And what makes you think that these reports were not addressed???

Its very nice that you report one side of the story...but what did the governmetn do about it??? What makes you think that after recieveing complaints about conditions in this or that camp...that the government did not take action to better the situation??

I can assure you they did...that is why complaints were send...so that the situation could be addressed.

Again...that is in 1926...at that time the prison system was barely organized...it was a mess.


As for Ukraine...we already discussed that here somewhere. Look at it and read what happened...not BS from Conquest and co.


Regarding the officers...WELL NO SHIT!!! If you are sentanced to death...YOU APPEAL!!! And that is what he is doing...asking for forgivness..thats what everyone sentanced to death does.

See...USSR was such an evil country that when a person was arrested...he could appeal his case for re-investigation. And guess what....in 1938 for example...some 120.000 people were freed after their appeals were re-examined and they were found to have been wrongfully arrested.

I wonder how such things could happen in an evil country where they threw away the key???



When you come out of your fary tale world where the government is a pefect little place of harmony...and no one is ever sentanced to death...we can talk again.



Oh those 12 story appartemnt complexes...yes I mean those. But I guess evil Stalin should have not build them at all...so the poor could live in the streets as they had before. Evil Stalin...building houses for the poor. Man he sure was evil!!!

Oh really...they put nuclear waste in the buildings??? USSR must have been one rich country if it put uranium and plutonim remains in appartment buildings...LOL (next time..try to make up a better story)


I'll reply to the rest latter...no time now...too much crap to reply in one day...

[Steve]

Genious...look at the date on that report about the prisons...1926...at that time...USSR had just come out of the Civil War...it was a mess.

It had been over for 4 years. I think things could be put in order by then, unless Lenin and Stalin were disorganized idiots.

And what makes you think that these reports were not addressed???

The fact that the same things continued to happen. Look at Lenin's note, he approved of such abuses, Stalin would too if he was such a great follower of Leninism.

Its very nice that you report one side of the story...but what did the governmetn do about it??? What makes you think that after recieveing complaints about conditions in this or that camp...that the government did not take action to better the situation??

I can assure you they did...that is why complaints were send...so that the situation could be addressed.

Then what did the government do?

My guess is that Stalin had the guys who wrote the letter shot. Seems to fit in with whatever else he did.

As for Ukraine...we already discussed that here somewhere. Look at it and read what happened...not BS from Conquest and co.

Why is what Conquest says "BS"?

I'll reply to the rest latter...no time now...too much crap to reply in one day...

Tell me about it. It takes long enough just to reply to your crap!

[Armée Rouge]

How can some people like Stalin? I understand that he helped us win a war, but other than that, what? Not to mention that the war could have been won in many better ways.

In fact, I dont really love Stalin, Iprefer Trotsky

p.-s : you're the comander of the red-army ?? No that's me

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

It had been over for 4 years. knife.gif I think things could be put in order by then, unless Lenin and Stalin were disorganized idiots.

Oh you are so smart Steve...you are all so smart when sitting in front of your computers...you know it all about how governmetns work and how to rganize them...and how to win wars...and how to organize economies.

I think you should have been runing it Steve...since you are so smart...

Look at Lenin's note, he approved of such abuses

There you go using that brain of yours again Steve!!...What abuses were these exactly??? The Kulaks going around killing peasants who joined collectives...killing officials...killing party members...burning fields...killing animals and destroying collectives. And what was the government supposed to do about it??? Let them go on...as the cities starved...as the Civil War raged...

Oh but of course...I am sure you have a better solution. Please enlighten me!! 300 years of Kulak exploitation on the peasants...and now killing 100 criminal Kulaks is an abuse...but that was not.


Clearly you people are 15 year olds who play far too many video games and have no idea what reality is...just that pretty picture MTV paints for you.

Then what did the government do?

Well....besides removing those prison officials respoinsible for the abuses...passing laws about the rights of prisoners and so forth...and having NKVD enforce them by arresting those who broke those laws....what else is there to be done???

You people are so smart as to say "By direct order of Stalin my railway worker grandfather was killed for taking some corn on the ground"!

Oh yes...Stalin in Moscow spend all his day examining cases of railway workers and street sweepers who broke the laws...and then personally signed death warrents for them. Why....its not as if there were other things to do...

I guess those radiaoctive wastes in your house really worked you well Kov....

Why is what Conquest says "BS"?

You mean besides the fact that he pulled it out of his ass???

According to the lowest current estimates by reputable Russian historians, Stalin was directly responsible for murdering 20 million of his own people, including 8 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Other Russian and foreign scholars, like the noted Robert Conquest, assert the true number of Stalin's victims was 30 million, or even 40! These figures do not include Russia's 18 million war dead.

Ohhh...please do name me ONE reputable Russian historian who says 20 million??? ONE...I BEG YOU!!!

The noted Robert Conquest wrote in the 70s...and every single word he has there...he has fabricated out of his ass...

And BTW...braniac...Russia's war dead were 26 million last time I checked...

Why...I wonder how accurate these figures are...if they range from 20 million to 40 million. Thats quite a range. You would think that if these people were all so smart and knew these numbers so well...they could give us a bit of a more accurate number than...1 to 100 million...oh hell...he killed all of them!!


In fact...Mr. Al-Rashid...you may be aware that the Soviet State Archives have been opened...and that the actual numbers of dead and prisoners and so forth...have all been revealed!!

So there is no need for the noted Conquest or reputable Russian historians to guess at the numbers...WE KNOW THE NUMBERS...they are in the State Archives.

And what do these numbers say...might you ask??? Well...according to the numbers...between 1924 and 1953 some 700.000 people were sentanced to death for all reasons. Now these are death sentances...not the actual number of people killed...since not all those sentanced to death were in fact killed. Many had their sentances reduced to prison terms...and in some years death sentanes were suspended for all the prisoners...pending re-investigation. Total number of executed people in those 30 years was around 300.000 for all causes...most in the war years.

But even if we say 700.000....thats quite a bit off the 20 million to 40 million mark...wouldn't you say???


As for 8 million in the Ukraine...I believe we had a good discussin in this section on that. Go and read it...you might learn something. I won't comment on stupidity anymore...

Opening secret Soviet archives will, I believe, point to the 30 million figure

Ummm....where have you been for the past 12 years??? The Archives ARE open...they point to 700 thousand...not 30 million!!!

Stalin's exile of entire Muslim peoples, such as Chechen, Ingush, Cherkass, Dhagestanis, and Tatars, remains almost unknown. Three million Muslims may have died in Stalin's Arctic camps where extreme cold proved an even cheaper and more efficient mass killer than poison gas.

You mean Stalin deported all the 50 or so million Muslims in the USSR??? My my...Siberia must have been one crowded place if Stalin deported all those people there...LOL

I guess thats why he build the Leningrad Mosque...beasue he hated Muslims and deported them

I am a bit confused...but if he hated Jews and deported them...and hated Muslims an deported them...and hated Christian religious and deported them...that who the hell was left in European Russia besides him and Molotov?? No one I guess....


Try to be more creative in your stupidity...becasue sometimes it borders on ridiculous...


The Chechens were deported becasue large numbers of them were cooperating with the Nazis during WW2...so you remove them in a time of war...just as US did with the Japanese to prevent cooperation. These are measures that are taken in war....but I guess in your video-game world you don't know that.

Stalin's mass murder of 8 million Ukrainians happened in the 1930's, before the world's gaze.

And yet...there is not a single photographic evidence it ever happened...not a single authentic account to point to any such mass famine...Again...read our discussion on this forum on the Ukrainian Famine...and why it never happened...

Hitler did not start World War II alone: he began it jointly with ally Stalin, when Germany and the USSR invaded and carved up Poland - after Russia invaded Finland.

Well by that logic...WW2 started in 1920 when Poland invaded USSR and took that land that the USSR liberated in 1939...Or were you not aware of that???

No I am affraid WW2 started when Hitler and his allies England, Frane and US provided aid to Franco in Spain and prevented Soviet aid from reacing the Republic...Or did we miss the MTV series on that???

You BRUTALY insult me.

You don't say....

HOWEVER, one of us was raized under the USSR school system, and one was not.

You were taught in Gorby's schools...that is equivalent to studying in Iowa (...sorry ahab)...

I lived in a "Stalinist" society (Albania)...you did not. Pick which one is better...

How many in your family died comrade? If you ever visit stalingrad, I will give you my last name, and I want you to help me count how many grandfathers, grandmothers and others in my bloodline died during that single battle. In fact because of that war most of my once huge family does not even know the other half! The War caused half the nation to marry on the spot. With all these things, you give no credit to the people that lived during the time?

Yes a lot of people died during the war. And your point is??? Hitler started the war...and yet you blame Stalin. Very smart indeed.

And who said I don't give credit to the people who fought??? But on the other hand...you seem to think wars are won without leadership...as if all it takes is brave soldiers. And who was leading these soldiers??? The holy ghost???

Without leadership...and army is useless...just as without brave soldiers and army is useless. Both go hand in hand...and yet you seem to think it all happened with no part on the leadership. This isn't Command and Conquer...this is real life!!

Most of the Russian population also agreed that there where no sides During the Great Patriotic war

Oh is that so!! I guess that is why tens of milliosn joined the Red Army...and many fought to the last man. I guess that is why Leningrad held out for 3 years...Must have been becasue the people just didn't pick a side...

I wonder now...who is disrespecting those Soviet people who foguth in the war...Me or you???

Here is a translation of one of my texts on stalin

Oh...one of your texts...I can't wait. And this text has no titles, authors, sources and such??? It just grew out of the earth from the will of God I presume...

"When he took over the top political position he took away the land and the right to farm the land so that beyond susbsistence wages all the food could be exported to buy the machinery he wanted to turn Russia into an industrial nation. (The farmers would never have agreed to this because they did not want industrial factories, they wanted chairs, clothes, shoes and other decadent luxuries.)

Oh yes...so if Stalin took away the right to farm from the farmers...who was farming the land??? The Holy ghost again....

Oh and if these farmers want chairs (why would they want chairs...I don't know...why were Iraqis stealing chairs???)....than these chairs are made in a factory...as are shirts...where they are mass produced. These factories need machinereis...and to make factories and machinery...one needs more factories and machinery.

Kind of hard...to have a modern country...if all you have is an ox and a plow.

This isn't Age of Empires sunny...this is real life. Russia at the time was in the 14th century as far as most people were concnered.

Some argued that limited private farms would be better and that Stalin was turning the clock back to the days of feudal lords and serfs, but Stalin won and letter disposed of those who had argued against his plan.

Well some also argue that there is a UFO behind the moon waiting to take you if you kill yourself...but that doesn't make it true.

How was privete farming...in the hands of poor farmers who could barely produce enough to survive...with an ox and a plow...going to support a nation of 170 million?? Doesn't happen...and that is why Russia had been in a constant state of famine for decades by that point...and the only thing that could save Russia was a major agricultural revolution.

Again...a modern country cannot be build with an ox and a plow of the poor individual farmer.

How did Stalin turn back the clock??? Beofore collectivization...most of the land was owned by the Kulaks...the rich landowners. The poor peasants either had a small plot of land of their own...or had to work on the Kulak's land for pay...little difference form the way they had lived for 300 years.

And now...Stalin took away the land from the Kulaks...and GAVE it to the peasants...who organized the land into collectives...kolkhozes...in which the land of every village was owned by the peasants of that village.

Doesn't sound like turning back the clock to me...BTW...I'd like to point once more...the land was NOT owned by the government...it was the land of the kolkhoz...of the village...That is the best I know of...of giving the peasants control of the land and still make the land productive.

I ask you...how many individual poor peasants in the 20s and 30s could afford to buy a tractor...or a combine...or a truck..or chemcals...How many of them had the scientific knowhow to work the land the best way??? NONE..and yet you say a modern state could have been created from peasants working the land as they had in the 14 th century??

I say you and whoever thinks so...is ignorant.

Ignorance is no an excuse.

To force the farmers into submission he took away their food and exported it while they died from starvation - for the greater good, of course. (About 5 million starved and another 5 million were sent off as slave labour.)

Oh yes...did he now??? The peasants starved??? If the peasants starved...than who was left to work the land afterwords??? Ahh that Holy Ghost was one busy man in those days...


Now again I would like to remind you that the Soviet Archives have been opened...so we know exactly how many people were send to "slave labor camps"...Oh how you people love that "slave labor" expression. Its not true of course.

In the years of collectivization...primarely 1931-33...about 63.000 people were arrested and charged with a variety of serious crimes. These were the Kulaks who opposed collectivization in a violent way...by killing peasants or party officials. Another 1.8 million people were deported from thier homes to special Kulak colonies. These were collectives were only former Kulaks worked. They were unguared...and were payed the same salary as peasants in state-owned sovkhozes were payed. So how was this slave labor if they were payed the same??? How was it slave labor..if they were unguarded...and by the first year alone...200.000 Kulaks were able to freely leave the colonies and return home??? You can't have a slave labor camp...if you don't have a camp...and if you don't guard. Furthermore...some 400.000 Kulaks were allowed to return home by the first year alone...so this was only a temporary deportation...after which they were free to leave (though many chose to remain in their new homes).

So were are those 5 million again??? Where are those slave labor camps again??

Keep in mind that the Kulak population in the USSR was 10 million...of which only 1.8 million had to be deported. The rest joined collectives voluntarely...

Food production fell. No one was rewarded for doing a good job so very few bothered.

Well the average farmer is a LOT smarter than you. He knows...if you don't work...you won't have a harvest for the year...and you will starve!! its really simple...so the only incentive for a farmer to farm...is food!!!

Food production fell??? MIND PROVING THIS ONE!!!

Becasue I can prove to you otherwise...that food production INCREASED as a result of collectivization. Here are some numbers for you to brainstorm over...

in 1929....the year before collectivization started...the cereal harvest was 71.7 million tons. In 1930..the year that collectivization started...the harvest was 83.5 million tons. 1931 and 1932 were drought years...and produced a bad harvest of 69 million tons and 70 million tons. 1933 came out of the harvest...and produced 89.8 million tons. 1934 produced 89.4 million tons. 1935 produced 90.1 million tons. 1936 was again a drought year and produced 69 million tons. 1937 was a record year and produced 120.9 million tons. 1938 produced 95 million tons. 1939 produced 105 million tons and 1940 produced 118.8 million tons.

So by the time collectivization was truly established...by the mid 30s...production was nearly double what it had been before collectivization!!

At this same time...the urban population of the USSR increased from 23.6 million people to 61 million people!!! How could such a dramatic increase in urban population be suproted...by individual peasants with an ox and a plow???

For the peasants themselves...life improved dramatically. Besides a social means of production where the village peasants woned the land...no one else...new means were also introduced. tractors,combines, trucks and such were introduced to mechanize agriculture.

In 1929...in the entire USSR there were 18.000 tractors, 14.000 tructs and 2 combines!! All of these were either state property or owned by the Kolkhozes. Individual peasants could not afford any of them.

By 1941...USSR had 684.000 tractors, 182.000 combines, and 228.000 trucks for the Kolkhozes.

How could this tremendous modernization take place if farming was still based on individual peasants??? Could they afford 684 thousands tractors????

Food consumption for the farmers also increased dramatically. If in pre-collective Russia food consumption was 100....by 1938 this had increased to 128 for bread; 180 for patatoes; 147 for fruit and vegetables; 148 for milk and dairy; and 179 for meat.

Ohh...what FACTUAL evidence can do....


So what did collectivization do??? Removed the Kulaks (Kulak meaning fist in Russian...gives you an idea of what the peasants thought of them)...gave the land to the peasants (in the form of village-owned kolkhozes)...introduced socialist means of production...increased production greatly...increased consumption greatly...which allowed for a dramatic modernization and building up of the entire society!!!

As I say...look at Russia today. What has been build...has ALL been build through socialist labor...and you say it did nothing???

Somewhere between one third and one half of what was grown rotten before it could be eaten.

LOL....radiactive materials kicking in again...

The small plots that some farmers were allowed to operate privately were much more productive.

LOL...even funnier. It just so happened I had family who lived in the village...in a collective IDENTICAL to those of the USSR in the Stalin period. You know what the private plot was??? It was a piece of land in front of the house...which my relatives used to plant flowers...raise 5 rabits, 5 chickens, and a shit-load of cats and dogs. The most the plot did was provide the daily egg consumption for the family...from those 5 chickens. Other than that...it served for the old man of the house to plant flowers.

A nation of 170 million...being sustained by a miserable plot of land in front of the house??? What obsurdity is this!! The private plots were for the peasants own use...where they kept a few small animals for persoanl use...or grew some tomatoes or such for personal use. There is a big difference between personal use...and making a nation-wide agriulture.

Russians had no freedom of choice and were ruthlessly exploited so that they would live on the least possible while producing industrial buildings, mines, canals and factories.

...and houses and buildings and hospitals ad schools and universities.......but no...Stalin build no such things...I guess you didn't have schools in the USSR at the time...oh poor you!!

And I ask you....where are 99.9% of ALL the things you use all day made??? Its called a FACTORY brainiac!! And what does a factory need?? It needs RAW MATERIALS...whcih come from mines and such...and needs ELECTRICITY...which comes from dams. With no electricity...and no mines...and no factories...you will be living in the 14th century???

Evil Stalin...modernizing Russia....

You can't seem to realize...that industry is the bases for creating a modern state. Without it...you live in the 14th century. Don't like indusrty...go live in Afghanistan.

This did produce a very large rise in the production of basic industrial goods such as coal, oil and steel. This was built on the backs of workers who were exploited, farmers who were starved and politicians who enjoyed every luxury that such a strange country could afford

Yes I guess so...that why before the revolution Russia had the LOWEST standard of living of ANY European country (...on the same level with Albania perhaps)...and by the 1950s the USSR had a standrad of living at least EQUAL to that f any European country.

Sure...keep on packing the stupid lies.

To keep in power Stalin killed anyone he thought was a threat. His suspicions were as majestic as his ambitions and so between 1934 and 1938 he is rumoured to have executed, tortured or imprisoned a member of every family in the country.

Why he even passed a law saying he had the right to sleep with a newly wed bride on her wedding night....Radioactive materials kicking in again....

He killed most of the competant military leaders and then killed the incompetant ones as well.

Competent+Incompetent=ALL....I guess there was no one left in the Soviet Armed forces...just the Holy Ghost leading the troops...

If you are going to lie..at least be a bit more tactfull!!! becasue if you say stupid things like that..you just make yourself look stupid.

But as I already PRVOED...some 8000 officers were arrested...out of nearly 200.000 officers in the Red Army.

By law anyone who intended to decrease the power of the state was due for 10 years imprisonment or preferably death. Of course the state decided who had such intentions"

The law stated counter-revolutionary activities or OVERTHROWING the state. In ANY country...if you try to overthrow the state or the system...you are jailed or worse.

Again...this is real world...not your computer games. Why are you surprised there is a lw which says that if you overthrow the governmetn you will go to jail?? There are such laws EVERYWHERE!!!

"Under the policy of "glasnost" or openness in the late '80s, scarcely a day went by without some new revelation about Stalin's monstrous crimes - revelations, that is, in the Soviet Union of things that were common knowledge in the West.

Oh indeed....too bad that after Glasnost...when the Archives were opened...Gorby couldn't show us where exactly he had read of 60 million killed (yes...thats what he claimed...but couldn't back it up with anything)...

Hey....did I ever tell you about what was said about Albania in the west??? Oh they said we had 1 million prisoners!! Sounds good doesn't it!!...too bad our entire country had 3 million people...and the prison population of Albania...according to OUR secert Archives oepend in 1992...was never more than 700 people!!!

So 700 become 1 million in the west.

Don't give me shit about what the west or what Gorby says.

PROVE it...or SHUT UP!!

History is not wirtten with assumptions and estimations...it is written with FACTS...FACTS have to be PROVEN!!

the so-called "Testament" of Vladimir Lenin (the Soviet Union's first leader) warning of the dangers of Stalin was published for the first time

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH......those radioative materials must have really screwed you up. The testament was published publically in 1925...Nor was it even a testament...rather the last letter of Lenin before he died (that doesn't make it a testament you numbskull!!)....And in it Lenin criticized ALL the CC members...not just Stalin.

AGAIN...1925...hardly Glasnost's period...eh ....

the names of his victims - Bukharin, Trotsky and others - were spoken aloud for the first time since the dictator's death.

He he he....there are medications against radiactiv poisening you know...

People emerged stunned by what they had learned about their own lives and history.

Yes...a woman came out and said...How stupid I have been all my life. I thought I was living a comfortable life...and now I see this play and I realize I was in a slave labor camp all this time...Silly me...I better go and sell my boddy on that street corner so I can afford to go to Pizza Hut tomorrow!!

There have been remarkably few books written or films made about the period in Russia - in marked contrast to the deluge of material produced about Hitler and the Holocaust.

Its kind of hard to make a movie or book...on something you can't prove...isn't it

A dwindling Old Guard of Stalinists in Russia hark back to what they regard as a time of greatness, now los

So dwindeling in fact....that the pro-Stalin CPSU and CPRF get the largest percentages of votes in national elections....so dwindeling in fact...that Putin had to restore the old anthem and the old Red Army flag just to make people feel less nostalgic for the USSR.

Yes...dwindeling...more like the Mafia is growing...than us dwindeling...

An opinion poll published this week discovered that more than half of Russians think that overall Stalin played a positive role in Russian history."

But I though you said they hated him??? And now more than 50% of Russians say Stalin was positive??? This after 50 years of studying under Gorby's and Brezhy's brilliant educational system??? I would say that is downright amazing!!....

I guess those are the 50% whose appratments did not have nuclear waste incorprated in the building!!

I am sorry, I cannot find over 200,000 names of military leaders, please read this, it sums it up. I even have a link for you.

Didn't I already reply to this.... ...LOL....just want you to see how ridiculous your arguments are.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Ohh...and a bit more on the "peasants got nothing" obsurdity...

in 1929...investments in the countryside were 379 million rubles. In 1935 they were 4 billion 983 million rubles. Yes...indeed they got nothing...just a new life...a better life.


Are you so thick headed thay you cannot even comprehed what the USSR was before collectivization and industrailization...and what it become afterwards??? Look around...you are in Moscow I think...

Even anti-Stalin writers like Zinoviev wrote about visting the village where his own mother was:

`When I returned to the village, even much later, I often asked my mother and other kolkhozians if they would have accepted an individual farm if they were offered the possibility. They all refused categorically.

`(The village school) had only seven grades, but acted as the bridge to the region's technical schools, which trained the veterinarians, agronomists, mechanics, tractor drivers, accountants and other specialists needed for the new `agriculture'. In Chukhloma, there was a secondary school with ten grades that offered better perspectives to its finishing students. All these institutions and professions were the result of an unprecedented cultural revolution. The collectivization directly contributed to this upheaval. Besides these more or less trained specialists, the villages hosted technicians from the cities; these technicians had a secondary or higher education. The structure of the rural population became closer to that of urban society .... I was a witness to this evolution during my childhood .... This extremely rapid change of rural society gave the new system huge support from the masses of the population

And BTW...this Zinoviev who was one of the anti-Stalin writers in the West...after 1991 realized what he was doing...and renounced all he had said and done against the USSR..and is now a supporter of communism and Stalin. And he has also revealed to us...that the emigree wirters in the west who write against the USSR...do so becasue it is a "lucrative business" to use his words. Money...my dear friend...money...can make people sell their own mothers.

[Steve]

I think you should have been runing it Steve...since you are so smart...

I think so too. My first step would be to ABANDON COMMUNISM!

There you go using that brain of yours again Steve!!...What abuses were these exactly??? The Kulaks going around killing peasants who joined collectives...killing officials...killing party members...burning fields...killing animals and destroying collectives. And what was the government supposed to do about it??? Let them go on...as the cities starved...as the Civil War raged...

Can you show me some proof of kulaks killing peasants, officials etc? And what is a kulak, who defines what one is. Or was it just up to Lenin and Stalin to label as a kulak anyone who opposed them?

As for the abuses, summarily hanging 100 people Lenin and communist officials define as kulaks counts as abuse. Taking grain counts as abuse. Executing hostages counts as abuse. These are not civil war measures. This is the calling card of a psychopath.

Oh but of course...I am sure you have a better solution. Please enlighten me!!

Yeah, I do. DON'T KILL THEM!

Clearly you people are 15 year olds who play far too many video games and have no idea what reality is...just that pretty picture MTV paints for you.

Video games? I don't play video games (except for the occasional game of Red Alert 2) and I can't even get MTV, even if I did I have no interest in watching it.

You mean besides the fact that he pulled it out of his ass???

Is there proof for this? Maybe something other than the Soviet archives for once?

BTW, can you give me a website or two where I can see all these Soviet archives "facts" for myself?

Pick which one is better...

Gorbachev please.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

And what is a kulak, who defines what one is.

I define what is one...is that good enough for you??

A Kulak is a landowner...someone who owns large propreties in the village and has poor peasants work on his land...and keeps the peasants in the village in the same condition as the lord treated serfs.

Furthermore..there were 10 million Kulaks in the USSR...but only 63.000 were arrested and 1.8 million deported...which were allowed to return to their homes once collectivization was complete in their respective regions.

So this policy was not aimed "at Kulaks"...but rather at Kulaks who opposed collectivization in a violent manner.

There were two classes in the village...the Kulaks and the peasants. The interests of the two were very different. The peasantry wellcomed collectivization...and joined on mass. The Kulaks opposed it...as it meant them loosing thier land. The peasants had little land or mostly no land at all...so they lost nothing but gained everything.

This is the calling card of a psychopath.

These are not civil war measures you say??? The cities were starving...and the Kulaks refused to ship food to the cities...either becasue they did not support the Bolsheviks or becasue they wanted higher prices for their grain.




Now what would you have done?? Oh I know...dump communism...join the whites...have a drink with the czar...enjoy life...yes...European style..why we got plenty of nigers to do our job for us.

Yeah, I do. DON'T KILL THEM!

Well...I guess no one was as smart as you. Hmm...yes...maybe they should put you in charge of the next war Steve...

Is there proof for this? Maybe something other than the Soviet archives for once?

Why anything other than the Soviet Archives??? They are the ONLY FACTUAL source. Not becasue I want them to be...but becasue they are.

Proof of this?? Have you ever read Conquest's books??? he himself never claims to have proof or evidence. He always says it is all estimations. But i want to know...with what data did Conquest "estimate" 20-40 million in the 1970s...when there was not a shred of information coming out of the USSR on these matters???

The fact that there was no info...and that he is "estimating"...is enough for his books to be BS in historical terms.

His ONLY sources were Ukrainian emigrees to the US. He passes them off as victims..but forgets to mention that nearly all of them were condemed war criminals wanted in the USSR for collabrating with the Nazis...or killing Jews...or such acts. What a wonderful source of info...isn't it???

But now that we have the REAL numbers...we can see just to what extent Conquest was BSing...

BTW, can you give me a website or two where I can see all these Soviet archives "facts" for myself?

There are such things called books...several have been written based on the Archival evidence. I suggest you pick one up...

Gorbachev please. biggrin.gif

Why??? You like not recieving your wages for 6 months THAT much???

[Vassili Zaitsev]

*Claps* Oh Spetsnaz, I love it when you speak. You make coming to this forum so worth while. Cheers comrade.

[Cassius Clay]

Indeed Comrade Spetsnaz keep up the good work.

Steve visit here and see what the archives say. http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

How anyone can deny the FACTS I don't know, but then again you can just belief the same people who declared the Taliban to be 'Freedom Fighters'.

On the issue of 'Slave Labor', such rubbish has been spread since the early 30's.

In the 1930s a Western campaign was begun about forced labor in labor camps. Molotov rebutted all the fantastic claims in a speech in 1931. Sure, he said, we used forced labor to rehabilitate criminals, giving them training and material support. But he punctured the stories of 'slave millions' with precise figures. He noted: 'In all the camps (housing a total of over 60,000) the working day has been set at 8 hours for the convicts. While receiving ample rations, and also monthly wages from 20 to 30 roubles in cash, the amount of work required from the convicts did not exceed that of the free laborer' .There was a good deal more of such openness. But no-one would believe it today, in the light of the so-called 'gulags' of Solzhenitsyn - a long-time anti-communist, who wanted Nazi Germany to win the war. No doubt life was harder for the prisoners during the war - but don't forget that it was harder for everyone during that time.

From the PCP in Peru.

[Steve]

Thanks for a great link to a Stalin fan club.

How do you expect anyone who doesn't worship him to stomach that crap? According to the nut who wrote the article, everyone is conspiring against the USSR with the Gestapo and Hearst and so on. There was no factual evidence here, except with one paragraph containing "the facts" which I am not inclined to believe after reading the rest of his article.

Can't you give me something better than Stalin-loving sites? Whatever books TS is talking about are not available to me as I live in Canada and libraries don't usually carry Soviet archival info.

[Cassius Clay]

So no one was recruited by the Gestapo throughout the entire Soviet Union?

Why did western Europe fall so fast? A fatal factor was because of all the fifth collums running about.

Anyway what that article is saying is that the vast majority were infact normal criminalls, people who would be locked up in any society. You also have to remember that the USSR in the 1930's, was a society recoviering from revolution and war if these sought of circumstances don't cause some people to turn to crime then I don't know what does. The research is not from the 'Stalin fan club' the article clearly states it's almost entirely the opposite, Getty is just one example. But like I said if you want to belief the same people who told you the Taliban were 'Freedom fighters' then go ahead, or how about the Contras 'Being the moral equivalent of our founding fathers'?

[Steve]

So no one was recruited by the Gestapo throughout the entire Soviet Union?

I'm sure some were, as in just about all European countries, but the article made it seem like every Ukrainian was working for the Gestapo.

[janx]

It comes off very sharply who Stalin was. A communist, struggling to build and maintain the very first communist state. No easy matter. Despite many problems, imperialist intervention, Trotskyite counter-revolutionary activity, and Nazi invasion, too name a very few, Stalin and the people of the Soviet Union were able to progress society by leaps and bounds. Did Stalin, and the people, make mistakes, sure. Of course. It is only natural. But the massive deathcounts are ludicrus and should be looked at for what they are, false information that has come from what could have been a poker match among boozwah scum. Give me 100,000 dead, I raise you 200,000, i raise you 1 million dead. Don't believe everything that you are told. Stalin was a revolutionary, could he hacve done things better, yes, but that never took away from his pro-people, pro-socialist life.
I encourage people to investigate and find the truth.... and NO! not those anti-Stalin textbooks (includiong those currently put out in Russia, which are very hostile to the ideology Stalin supported, communism, they are written by capitalists that fly the red flag to fight the red flag). NO! get you head out of those Trotskyite texts!! You will find little truth of Stalin there! Read the statistics, read the stories from the Soviet Union, put out by the Socialist State.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

but the article made it seem like every Ukrainian was working for the Gestapo.

But they were. They were in the UPA...the Ukrainian Nationalist Army...which collaborated with the Nazis...which established a puppet government in the Ukraine under Nazi control...and who undertook massive massacres of Jews, Russians, communists and so forth.

These numbered about 20.000 or so people...and most of these made it to the US. If you don't call them Gestapo agents or Nazi collaborators...what else would you call them??

Whatever books TS is talking about are not available to me as I live in Canada and libraries don't usually carry Soviet archival info.

No where do libraries carry such books...they just aren't as popular as Conquest's books. In Russia you will find plenty of books...One who writes good books based on the Archives is Yuri Mukhin. I doubt you will find anything of him in the west. But even if you look into well known Western historians...such as J. Arch Getty...a history professor in UCLA I think (Don't remember...ahab should know!). He has written books which are specifically designed to expose Conqeust and co as liers. He uses some material from the Soviet Archives...and he maintains an anti-Stalin stance however. But even he is better than nothing. So look for books by J. Arch Getty...as in the west he is probably the best you can find.

Regarding the Ukrainian Famine...this is a good book exposing the lies about it.... Douglas Tottle, Fraud, Famine and Fascism: The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard, Toronto: Progress Books, 1987

I doubt you wil find these either. [/i]

[ahab]

One who writes good books based on the Archives is Yuri Mukhin. I doubt you will find anything of him in the west. But even if you look into well known Western historians...such as J. Arch Getty...a history professor in UCLA I think (Don't remember...ahab should know!).

I feel obliged to do this
http://www.history.ucla.edu/getty/ A quick page about Getty's life and what he has researched and written.

J. Arch Getty's and Robert Conquest's lists on Amazon.com. Getty's highest selling book on Amazon ranks # 462,975 in sales, Conquest's highest selling book on Amazon ranks # 19,130. The description of Conquest's newest books (1991) claim that the Soviet archives are a source. From the descriptions of his books "Conquest here blends profound research with evocative prose" <insert barfing emoticon here> I've never found history and prose to go together

also need to bitch to someone about getting a barfing emoticon

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

He he...glad to see no one is buying Conquest's crap anymore...

[Koba SE]

another critical thing to remember... especially when buying books on theory is to check the date of the publication..... Russian Imperialist publishers have published and intentionally mistranslated or even blatantly changed ideological concepts and this problem, while not a rampant problem... its deffinately catching up to boot legged vodka.

Another Book that I saw but didnt look into was an archive of the Ukrainian Press in Canada..... this book has to do with the 1921-1923 Famine (its called 'golodny' or 'hungry')... My friend read it and said its a good source.

[Kov]

First, some personal matter to battle with.

"You BRUTALY insult me."

"You don't say...."

I do not remember any insults thrown at you in any diliberate atempt to inrage you, yet you go forth and start insulting us and calling us various things that you could not prove within reasonable doubt.

Please do not mock us for what you started.


Also as for the families killed, I did not blame anyone. What I did try and point out was the lovely irony that some YOUTH of this world do not listen to those that lived before them. No matter...

I am far fed up with this battle and wish to withdraw, the amount of stuborness is hard to handle in large amounts, so excuse me if I do not post every day.

On the topic of what I started this thread for, Spetz, I wanted you and your felow stalin worshipers to tell me what is so admirable and great about stalin that I should become one like you. This was my only wish for this thread, not a bloody flame war. Can one of you please answer that simple question for me so that I can be content with my life and not listen to more of this?

That is without childish insults for some of us...