Top 10 Military Leaders Ever! - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14051730
10. Timur (Timurid Dynasty)

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9. Cyrus the Great (Persian Empire)

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8. Attila (Hunnic Empire)

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7. Frederick the Great (Prussia)

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6. Khalid ibn al-Walid (Rashidun Caliphate)

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5. Hannibal (Carthage)

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4. Napoleon (French Empire)

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3. Julius Caesar (Roman Republic)

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2. Alexander the Great (Macedon)

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1. Genghis Khan (Mongol Empire)

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#14052221
While not a 'great' military leader on a truly global scale, I would speak up for Field Marshal William 'Bill' Slim of the British army in Burma during WW2. He took an army reeling from defeats versus the Japanese in 1941-42 and despite meagre resources, British conscripts totally unused to the environment and a lack of support from back home developed a fighting force that took on and defeated the Japanes army in Burna by 1945.
#14052659
Harald Baldr wrote:Although at a terrible loss in men and many tactical blunders along the way, shouldn't Georgy Zhukov be on this list?


To be honest I think Zhukov should be in the same bracket as the likes of Eisenhower and Alanbrooke. They benefitted from the vast resources available to them. They achieved greatness by the significance of their victories and the fact they had a modicum of competence. This is in contrast to many Allied commanders who were frequently shown up by their Wehrmacht counterparts.
#14052746
Rokossovsky wrote:
To be honest I think Zhukov should be in the same bracket as the likes of Eisenhower and Alanbrooke. They benefitted from the vast resources available to them. They achieved greatness by the significance of their victories and the fact they had a modicum of competence. This is in contrast to many Allied commanders who were frequently shown up by their Wehrmacht counterparts.


Good point. But still, Zhukov did turn what looked like an inevitable defeat into victory in the greatest war mankind has ever witnessed, Soviet Union vs. Nazi Germany.
#14053254
Funny that no one mentioned this guy.

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Zhukov's claim to fame was that he had such a wealth of men and machines that he had no aversion to spending whatever amount of human and mechanical fodder that was required to obtain a victory. He didn't need to be brilliant and he wasn't. All he needed to be was game and persistent and the > 2 to 1 superiority in population and industrial capacity would ensure victory. For the Germans the war against the Soviet Union was lost on the day the little corporal kicked off Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's stupidity assisted the Russians in defeating Germany in myriad of ways.

I personally think Lucius Cornelius Sulla was a remarkable general.

Battle of Chaeronea (86 BC) 40,000 Romans vs 120,000 Pontic result <100 Roman KIAs vs +100,000 Pontic KIAs
Battle of Orchomenus (85BC) 15,000 Romans vs 80,000 Pontic result 100-200 Roman KIAs vs 15,000 to 20,000 Pontic KIAs

Hannibal was a great general but consider his loss vs Scipio Africanus at the Battle of Zama

Hanibal 45,000 infantry, 4,000 cavalry, 80 war elephants
Scipio 34,000 infantry, 9000 cavalry

Casualties at the Battle of Zama
Hannibal 20,000 killed, 20,000 captured
Scipio 2,500 killed

Rokossovsky wrote:While not a 'great' military leader on a truly global scale, I would speak up for Field Marshal William 'Bill' Slim of the British army in Burma during WW2. He took an army reeling from defeats versus the Japanese in 1941-42 and despite meagre resources, British conscripts totally unused to the environment and a lack of support from back home developed a fighting force that took on and defeated the Japanes army in Burna by 1945.


I couldn't agree more But of course I also have a fondness for "Vinegar Joe" Stillwell.
#14053280
I personally think Lucius Cornelius Sulla was a remarkable general.

I agree, but Marius was no slouch either. In fact, Rome was blessed throughout its history with a succession of brilliant generals, a succession which only really came to an end with Belisarius.

And if Nelson is to be included, then why not Wellington? After all, the one and only time Wellington and Napoleon faced each other on the field of battle, Wellington won.
#14053300
I agree, but Marius was no slouch either. In fact, Rome was blessed throughout its history with a succession of brilliant generals, a succession which only really came to an end with Belisarius.

And if Nelson is to be included, then why not Wellington? After all, the one and only time Wellington and Napoleon faced each other on the field of battle, Wellington won.
I agree 100% about both Marius and Wellington.

Indeed in many ways Marius had the greatest impact of them all bar none since through the Military Reforms that he initiated that are now called the Marian reforms the Roman Legions and the entire military system of Rome matured into a force that was almost unbeatable for over three centuries from the time of Augustus to the time of Constantine the Great in the west and well beyond that in the East. His elimination of the manipular legions in favor of cohort legions, the change to Roman law that allowed non Land owners to serve in the legions and the complete standardization of equipment, recruitment and training were the pillars on which Imperial Rome was built.
#14053310
I'm personally not so sure about Wellington. In my opinion he was a great defensive commander - The Lines of Torres Vedras and of course Waterloo are great examples of a commander who preferred to let his enemy come to him. Wellington would then typically wait it out looking for his opponent to make a mistake.

Now I suppose one could argue that is one possible definition of a top military leader, however he certainly never really took the initiative too often.
#14053454
Xbow wrote:In fact, Rome was blessed throughout its history with a succession of brilliant generals, a succession which only really came to an end with Belisarius.


They had their share of poor ones like Varus 9 CE, Severianus 161 CE etc.


..the entire military system of Rome matured into a force that was almost unbeatable for over three centuries from the time of Augustus to the time of Constantine the Great..


I'm afraid the disasters of the mid third century hurt Rome's military reputation before Constantine, at least for a time.
#14053758
Starman2003 wrote:I'm afraid the disasters of the mid third century hurt Rome's military reputation before Constantine, at least for a time.
I'm afraid you didn't read my post I said ALMOST, In any case my comment was concerned with the effect of the Marian Reforms I made no claim that Rome never suffered a loss in battle as a result of incompetence on the part of a commander. The defeat and death of the incompetent Marcus Licinius Crassus at the Battle of Carrhae in 53BC is proof of that. But still during the time frame I mentioned the Roman Legions were successful in vastly more cases that they were failures.
It was not Xbow who wrote:In fact, Rome was blessed throughout its history with a succession of brilliant generals, a succession which only really came to an end with Belisarius.
Although I agree 100% with Potemkin I didn't write it he did. You have attributed this remark to me in ERROR.
Rokossovsky  wrote:The Lines of Torres Vedras and of course Waterloo are great examples of a commander who preferred to let his enemy come to him. Wellington would then typically wait it out looking for his opponent to make a mistake.
I agree but IMHO opinion a military commander that can manipulate events so that he can fight from an advantageous position is to be admired.

A perfect example of this would be the Battle of Watling Street in AD60 where Gaius Suetonius Paulinus and his two legions (~10,000) crushed the Boudican Revolt. Paulinus refused combat with the Celtic force that according to Tacitus were +100,000 strong but according to Dio 230,000 strong (most historians put the number of Celtic warriors at 50,000 to 70,000). Once he found adventitious terrain he deployed his forces and waited for the Celtic army to show up. The Romans held their positions along a narrow front and fought defensively until Suetonius decided that he had bled the Celts enough and then moved forward in a serrated line of wedges and butchered the Celts in detail like so many panicked sheep.

result
Roman Forces lost <500 troops Celtic Forces lost 90% of their combat force (60,000?) and perhaps twice that number in camp followers.

The point is that Wellington knew as did Suetonius that fighting at a place and time of your choosing can multiply your combat power. I obviously think Wellington belonged in the top echelon. It was simply the intelligent application of METT ( Mission, Enemy, Terrain, & Troops.) Sir John R Jellicoe was often criticized for not taking the initiative but as Churchill said 'Jellicoe was the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon'.

Why has no one mentioned this guy?
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Sun Tzu wrote:The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
#14071052
Lensky1917 wrote:I nominate ISOROKU YAMAMOTO. Come on, the guy was basically assassinated.


I'll buy that for a dollar...not that he was the greatest leader ever but one of them for sure. His word was almost like a command from GOD. In the final days before the Pearl Harbor attack just before the ships reached their launch positions Yamamoto still had some hope that an agreement could be reached. He told his admirals to be ready for a recall even if the missions was already half way to the target. Nagumo said that it would be difficult once things were in motion. Yamamoto replied calmly, 'if you can't guarantee complete control of your assets I will accept your resignation immediately'.

Yamamoto was a strange mixture of old and new ideas. And in that way he was very much like Chester Nimitz both men were proponents of the aircraft carrier and the submarine but held on to the notion that somehow the final climactic battle would be between battleships in some massive meeting engagement in the western pacific.

Decisive Battle Doctrine:
For Yamamoto is was Kantai Kessen,
For Nimitz it was Plan Orange.

As it happened after Pearl Harbor Japan and the USA traded places. It had been Japans plan to whittle down the American fleet that would be 50% larger via raids and submarines. Now the Japanese had the larger pacific Fleet and the USA under Nimitz adopted the same strategy as the Japanese intended to use.

•Yamamoto was born on 24 April 1884
•Nimitz was born on 24 February 1885.
•Nimitz's first tour as a young officer was on the battleship Ohio in 1906
•' first tour was on the heavy cruiser cruiser Nisshin in 1904.
• first command of a Capital ship was the fleet carrier carrier IJN Akagi in 1929.
•Nimitz's first command of a Capital ship was the heavy cruiser USS Augusta in 1933.
• became commander of the combined fleet on 30 August 1939.
•Nimitz became the Commander of Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet on 17 December 1941.
•Both men had a deep respect for the capabilities of the others fleet and Naval establishment.

Trivia Notes:

•Nimitz married in April 1913 and Yamamoto married in 1918 both had four children.
•Yamamoto was missing parts of two fingers on his right hand and Nimitz was missing part of one finger on his right hand.

Interesting that their characters were direct opposites Yamamoto was calm and soft spoken while Nimitz was rough and aggressive
#14279241
Xbow wrote:Funny that no one mentioned this guy.

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Zhukov's claim to fame was that he had such a wealth of men and machines that he had no aversion to spending whatever amount of human and mechanical fodder that was required to obtain a victory. He didn't need to be brilliant and he wasn't. All he needed to be was game and persistent and the > 2 to 1 superiority in population and industrial capacity would ensure victory. For the Germans the war against the Soviet Union was lost on the day the little corporal kicked off Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's stupidity assisted the Russians in defeating Germany in myriad of ways.


A wealth of manpower perhaps, but not machines. Not in 1941 originally. When Hitler launched his three pronged hammer blow against the USSR, that country was rural, still almost in the serf era, with few paved roads or armament's factories, a railroad system that, although archaic, was a different gauge than Germany's and an army which had performed poorly in Finland because Stalin had murdered the majority of its veteran generals.

The seeds for the Nazi defeat in Russia were sown with the Ribbentrop Pact in 1939, giving Hitler a free pass vs. Poland, and essentially saving the Soviets to fight another day on their soil two years later. Essentially, Germany gave the Soviets' half of Poland without ever firing a shot. When the German General Staff, in existence for a hundred years, discovered, upon invading Poland in 1939, and suddenly receiving the Western democracies Declaration's of War, that the Soviet Army was on the move, one of their general's responded "Against Whom?"

Although they declared war, with England, against Germany upon the invasion of Poland, France really didn't have the political will for the fight. Their military thinking was defensive, with the Maginot Line. This wasn't surprising, having lost an entire generation in World War I. They could have sent a million man army smashing into Germany at anytime before 1940, and deposed Hitler, there were no western defenses, everything the Wehrmacht had was concentrated on the eastern front for the invasion of Poland. Hitler had good intuition and understood the French better than any of his enemies, and decided to launch the war in the east, and not worry whether the French would attack, and they didn't.

The three-pronged hammer blow the German Army launched against the USSR in 1941, should have won, and if they had, Germany, despite what the French and British had, would have ended the war. The gamble was worth it, England, although still a belligerent, had only rescued their army at Dunkirk, not their equipment. Their only fighting force left was the RAF and the British navy, engaged in attempting to keep the sea lanes to America open against the U-Boat campaign. Germany launched a summer war against Russia, and the central army group reached the outskirts of Moscow, Stalin and the government fled, and they came within sight of the Kremlin spires. Had they stepped off from the eastern border of Poland, instead of where their "chop line" was, 250 miles back, they would have overrun Moscow and captured the capital and ended the war.

What saved the Soviet's was American Lend Lease armaments, which put their army on wheels, and provided the ammunition, artillery, airplanes, tanks to fight the German's. A heroic defense of Leningrad (one of the great stories of World War II, seldom told), and a suicidal defense of Stalingrad, coupled with the Russian winter, froze the German's. Hitler's order to fight and die, instead of a strategic retreat at Stalingrad, cost them an entire army, which, even in the winter, would have still been available, early, to fight off the Russian Army. The Russians did have the manpower advantage, and the huge interior to retreat to, build factories, and regroup, with Lend Lease supplies, sent to them from America, they got the breathing room they needed to fight Germany and cut the heart out of the Nazi's. The Soviets held a different view than America's in battle. Where the United States sacrificed equipment and machines, something no other country, except perhaps Germany could produce at our scale, instead of manpower, Eisenhower was once told by a Russian general, that the way to clear a minefield, was to walk a division through it.

Historians have overemphasized Hitler's decision in 1941 to turn east and leave a belligerent England in his rear, however, he had won the gamble in Poland in 1939 anticipating the French response, had an active U-Boat campaign running in the North Sea and the Atlantic. He shouldn't have wasted his Luftwaffe in an even struggle over England's skies with the RAF, they should have been used in Russia, and British bombing of German cities wasn't particularly common in 1941, and America wasn't yet in the war. The gamble was worth it in Russia, it should have succeeded, except for American Lend Lease supplies saving first England, which really could do nothing militarily against the Germans, and than the Soviet Union. But the seeds for Germany's defeat in Russia can be laid directly in the Ribbentrop Pact which gave the Soviets an extra 250 mile demilitarized zone in Poland, which eventually saved Moscow in 1941.......Sta
#14279861
Any "best general" list is frankly ridiculous, great man of history and shit. Also,

without the legacy left by Philip II (cpmpanion cavalry), there will be no ALexander the great and

all those battles regarding Rome are grossly exaggerated like most of ancient battles. It was simply impossible for pontus to field more than 100K soldiers.

Finally, many great Chinease are missing.
#14281027
StanFan wrote:the central army group reached the outskirts of Moscow, Stalin and the government fled

Stalin made a rather point of staying in Moscow in 1941.

StanFan wrote:What saved the Soviet's was American Lend Lease armaments, which put their army on wheels

First of all, significant Lend Lease shipments didn't really start arriving in the Soviet Union till late 1942. The idea that something that arrived after they had successfully defended themselves (and lets not forget the counter-offensive outside Moscow in 1941) 'saved' the Soviet Union is hard to follow.

The majority of trucks used by the Red Army were domestically produced. In fact more trucks were produced in the Soviet Union 1941-1945 than were received from Lend-Lease. The contribution of Lend-Lease wasn't insignificant, but the idea that the Red Army had no mobility without Lend Lease is overblown.

StanFan wrote:ammunition

Given that Soviet armaments were in a different calibre to US manufactured weapons, I don't see how they could have been providing anything other than ammo to supply the weapons/vehicles that were delivered. This document seems to support this. A lot of what was shipped to other nations as Lend Lease in terms of ammo was not provided to the Soviet Union.

StanFan wrote:artillery

A look at the Soviet artillery park, even their anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns, shows they were predominantly Soviet made. This source describes the flow of Lend Lease artillery as modest. It also doesn't list the USSR as a recipient.

StanFan wrote:tanks

The Soviets had the most produced tank of WWII in their arsenal (the T-34). Are you seriously telling me the Soviets would have been no where without their Lend Lease tanks?

StanFan wrote:A heroic defense of Leningrad (one of the great stories of World War II, seldom told), and a suicidal defense of Stalingrad, coupled with the Russian winter, froze the German's.

The assault on Leningrad was in 1941, the assault on Stalingrad was in 1942. Also the German offensive against Stalingrad had broken down well before the winter. You're doing some strange things with chronology here. Also the defense of Moscow was a more important event than the defence of Leningrad.

StanFan wrote:Ribbentrop Pact which gave the Soviets an extra 250 mile demilitarized zone

The Polish territory you refer to was not a demilitarised zone. Indeed Stalin has been extensively criticised by historians for concentrating too many troops near the new Polish border, where they were trapped in pockets and destroyed during Barbarossa.
#14281033
Michael Collins
The difference between Michael Collins and the rest of the Military Leaders on your list is that he didn't have the vast resources of a mighty empire or millions of men at his command, yet he managed to bring the British forces in Ireland to their knees at a time when they were still a major world power.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_%28Irish_leader%29
#14281052
I'm personally not so sure about Wellington.


Wellington was a fantastic commander who certainly could be aggresive too. Its just that his strategic situation usually favoured the defensive.

However, he himself already said that Napoleon was the greatest general in history.

The thing about napoleon is the sheer number of battles and how he worked on so many different levels. Generals of that era had to suddenly deal with controling much larger armes, poorly trained and without modern general staff or communications.

Alexander the great is impressive and everything but he only really fought one big enemy (persia) and inherited his uber army from his father.

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