[noemon]

What are you trying to communicate? Speak clearly and concisely.

[telluro]

European civilization is neither liberal nor democratic. The civilization in Europe today is an appendage of US, not European civilization.

[noemon]

Suppose we agree. So?

[telluro]

Israel is not European. It is Western.

[Kman]

European civilization is neither liberal nor democratic.

Democracy was invented in ancient Greece and iirc it existed for significant periods of the Roman Empire also (they had senators etc), so at some level it is european.

[telluro]

Democracy in ancient Greece was a brief experiment, and in any case not recognizable as democracy by any modern standard. Even the very word "democracy" had to the Greek all the flavours of an extremist mass nationalism. What the Athenians had for a brief 300 years, give or take, was politeia.

And Rome was a Republic with very few hints of democracy as WE'd understand it.

[Kman]

Democracy in ancient Greece was a brief experiment, and in any case not recognizable as democracy by any modern standard. Even the very word "democracy" had to the Greek all the flavours of an extremist mass nationalism. What the Athenians had for a brief 300 years, give or take, was politeia.

And Rome was a Republic with very few hints of democracy as WE'd understand it.

The Roman Empire was very much a democracy (in the modern term which actually is a republic) in the earlier stages of the empire, roman politicians had to do what the people wanted to stay in power.

Athenian society was a true democracy, it was ''mob rule'' as Thomas Jefferson would say, where there was no elected representatives, it was every athenian voting on the different issues.

I also would not call 300 years of democracy as a ''brief'' period.

While I wont call neither of these societies perfect democracies they did none the less establish the concept and showed that it worked IE they invented it.

[War Angel]

Israel is basically European, because it's got European origins and was founded by European Jews.

Israel is European in origin? We're Jews, we're Semitic in origin, not European. Also, over half of the Jews in Israel are NOT from Europe, so that point drops as well.

Also, the Jews who did come from Europe, have mostly kissed their European ways goodbye. You won't find much of a difference in anything but physical appearance, between a young Jew of German origins, and a young Jew of Iraqi origins.

Germans, the French or the Dutch would be the same in Israel's place.

All of these countries have committed genocide, at some point in their history. I wonder what point you were trying to make?

Israelis can beat their opponents due to their European cultural background.

How so?

Geographical Europe is 100% arbitrary, so the question of whether a given country is European is ethnocultural rather than geographical.

Correct, and in this regard, there isn't much of Europe in Israel.

Israelis definitely follow European trends more than they follow any other.

I'd say we're following American trends, if anything.

[Beren]

Western civilization incorporates the US and Europe, is democratic and liberal and capitalist, and is about 200 years old.

I guess that can be a brief description of the modern West, but Western Civilization means a lot more than that and it originates from the Graeco-Roman culture, which was the Western culture of ancient times.

Western culture (sometimes equated with Western civilization or European civilization) refers to cultures of European origin.

The US, the UK and the whole Anglo-Saxon world have European origins, that's why they are Western.

[telluro]

The Roman Empire was very much a democracy (in the modern term which actually is a republic) in the earlier stages of the empire, roman politicians had to do what the people wanted to stay in power.

This is completely flawed, and no. In general, there was only one office tied to the people, and that was the tribune. By the end of the Republic, the tribunes wielded such mob power that they overturned the Republic and created the Empire.

The Republic itself was a Classical Republic. All republics today are called republic simply because they are representative democracy. It's a name, rather than an actual description. The definition of a classical Republic is a politically mixed rule, with elements of kingship (the consuls), aristocracy (the senate) and democracy (the tribune).

For Rome, the worst fears of Republican thinkers, like Aristotle and later Machiavelli, had come true, that one element of the Republic took over the rest. In Rome's case, it was the democratic and kingly element in conjuction which took over, and ousted to a very real extent, the aristoctratic element - the Senate.

Athenian society was a true democracy, it was ''mob rule'' as Thomas Jefferson would say, where there was no elected representatives, it was every athenian voting on the different issues.

No. It was a small minority who had the vote. Free males over 30.

I also would not call 300 years of democracy as a ''brief'' period.

Compared to about two millennia of Greek history it is certainly brief. Not to mention the fact that only the Athenians and to an extent the Spartans had democracy. The majority of the Greeks, living outside of Greece, still had the old kingships.

While I wont call neither of these societies perfect democracies they did none the less establish the concept and showed that it worked IE they invented it.

That's an Enlightenment myth, by and large.

I guess that can be a brief description of the modern West, but Western Civilization means a lot more than that and it originates from the Graeco-Roman culture, which was the Western culture of ancient times.

Present day Europe and the US are veritable aliens compared to classical Greek society.

Western culture (sometimes equated with Western civilization or European civilization) refers to cultures of European origin.
The US, the UK and the whole Anglo-Saxon world have European origins, that's why they are Western.

Only by way of causation.

[Beren]

Present day Europe and the US are veritable aliens compared to classical Greek society.

Because Anglo-Saxons, Franks and other Germanic peoples who inherited the Western civilization from the Romans were veritable aliens compared to classical Greeks.

[telluro]

Because Anglo-Saxons, Franks and other Germanic peoples who inherited the Western civilization from the Romans were veritable aliens compared to classical Greeks.

Because even if you support the largely unsupportable idea that present civilization in the West has a direct evolutionary path to ancient Greece, you can still find very few common traits between a classical Greek society and a contemporary European society. You say Western civilization is a democracy by all standards - Aristotle would say we've an admixture of plutocratic oligarchy and demagoguery, he'd say our cities are too big to be real democracies anyway, and there is a fixed political class regardless of the democratic elements, and that what constitutes public opinion is effectively a manipulative creation of the media (something he might have a hard time understanding why it exists except as a para-political tool of demagoguery), he'd say that politics are not truly public in this West, and that the citizens are too fixated on work, consumption and their private lives to be truly free political citizens. Now, some of this points are considered as high achievement points by contemporaries - the diversity of the media and the private life are two of them, whereas for the Greek the only slight equivalent of the media is art, and private life practically doesn't exist for an adult male.

A classical Greek brought to life today would find far more in common with traditional (non-extremist) Islamic societies, than with Western society.

[Beren]

As for Aristotle, although I originate from my father, we can disagree on many things. Just because we are not the same as the ancient Greeks (or we are way different from them) we can originate from them. That's evolution. However, recent Western culture rather stems from Roman culture than classical Greek culture, because Germanic peoples inherited Western culture from the Romans, not the Greeks. But Roman culture absorbed a lot from classical Greek culture.

A classical Greek brought to life today would find far more in common with traditional (non-extremist) Islamic societies, than with Western society.

So what?

[Kman]

Because even if you support the largely unsupportable idea that present civilization in the West has a direct evolutionary path to ancient Greece, you can still find very few common traits between a classical Greek society and a contemporary European society.

So the fact that the first accounts of democracy happened in Europe and the fact that it reappeared later on in european societies or societies of european decent is just a coincidence?

You say Western civilization is a democracy by all standards - Aristotle would say we've an admixture of plutocratic oligarchy and demagoguery, he'd say our cities are too big to be real democracies anyway

The greek philosephers like Socrates and Aristotle were very smart men, they practiced the use of reason, and anyone reasonable will see that western society is very democratic, its not ruled by an ''elite'', its very much ruled by the will of the people.

and there is a fixed political class regardless of the democratic elements

The political class is not fixed, anyone can run for office and win a seat if they can achieve the support of the people.

he'd say that politics are not truly public in this West, and that the citizens are too fixated on work, consumption and their private lives to be truly free political citizens.

Give him a little more credit than that please, anyone can see that politics is more public than they have ever been in human history because of this little invention called TV.

A classical Greek brought to life today would find far more in common with traditional (non-extremist) Islamic societies, than with Western society.

No they would feel very alienated in a Islamic society, I have only really studied Socrates (Plato was Aristotle's teacher and Plato was friends with Socrates and knew him well), but I know for sure he would not feel at home in a society like that, Socrates was very hostile toward the so called moral superiority of religious fables, Socrates would get himself either exiled or killed very fast if he lived in an Islamic society because in Islam questioning the Koran is a deadly sin.

Overall I think your projecting your own political views onto Aristotle and your ignoring how the greek philosephers actually approached things.