[Eauz]

I don't have an ideology.

[JohnRawls]

Article 34
Social security and social assistance
1. The Union recognises and respects the entitlement to social security benefits and social services
providing protection in cases such as maternity, illness, industrial accidents, dependency or old age, and
in the case of loss of employment, in accordance with the rules laid down by Community law and
national laws and practices.
2. Everyone residing and moving legally within the European Union is entitled to social security
benefits and social advantages in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices.
3. In order to combat social exclusion and poverty, the Union recognises and respects the right to
social and housing assistance so as to ensure a decent existence for all those who lack sufficient
resources, in accordance with the rules laid down by Community law and national laws and practices.

Article 35
Health care
Everyone has the right of access to preventive health care and the right to benefit from medical
treatment under the conditions established by national laws and practices. A high level of human
health protection shall be ensured in the definition and implementation of all Union policies and
activities.

According to the charter of the fundamental rights of the European union .
If such question arises in the Un , the judges could just point out this or the tradition in favor of the fundamental right but any discussion would probably be blocked American Veto.

[Kman]

So because the socialist EU politicians calls it a right then suddenly it is a universal right for all people on earth ?

You dont have a right to healthcare anymore than you have a right to a car or a house or a gold watch.
Health care costs other people time and energy and somehow claiming that you have some inherent right to their time and products is simply wrong.

[JohnRawls]

Established tradition is binding to everyone .

The same thing can be said about Nuclear Disarmament .

[The Clockwork Rat]

Kman, you're a heartless piece of shit in my eyes, but I know you don't care.

Accidents happen, such as being in car accidents, getting mugged, sporting injuries, etc. People also get born with genetic diseases or weaknesses such as diabetes, Huntington's, or a weakness to forms of cancer or heart disease. You can also develop through no fault of your own leukaemia, hyperthyroidism, and all manner of things. There are also infectious diseases such as flu, lyme's disease, malaria, rabies, HIV, MRSA, strep.

People aren't weak because they get these health problems, they're unlucky. If we just let people die then we'd miss out on so much talent and skill in society that I doubt the world would be a better place.

[Kman]

Kman, you're a heartless piece of shit in my eyes, but I know you don't care.

Accidents happen, such as being in car accidents, getting mugged, sporting injuries, etc. People also get born with genetic diseases or weaknesses such as diabetes, Huntington's, or a weakness to forms of cancer or heart disease. You can also develop through no fault of your own leukaemia, hyperthyroidism, and all manner of things. There are also infectious diseases such as flu, lyme's disease, malaria, rabies, HIV, MRSA, strep.

People aren't weak because they get these health problems, they're unlucky. If we just let people die then we'd miss out on so much talent and skill in society that I doubt the world would be a better place.

I think health care is a great thing as long as people pay for it out of their own pocket, it is not something governments should be sticking their messy fingers into.

Maybe if you understood how good the free market is at delivering products like health care at affordable prices, then you wouldnt be thinking in those communist patterns of ''the state should provide me with what I need''.

[JohnRawls]

But healthcare is a fundamental right . Everyone should recieve help if the need arises . But it doesn't say that it must be 100% owned by government .

It is said that government should help those in need . The rest who have money can go to a private clinic if they want to .

[Kman]

But healthcare is a fundamental right . Everyone should recieve help if the need arises.

That is your opinion, its not universal moral law or anything.

[Wolfman]

Let me explain his logic to you John.

There is a fundamental right to property. But, if you get sick, go fuck yourself, cause healthcare isn't a right.

Also, when someone starts trolling you, don't post insults. Thats there goal

[The Clockwork Rat]

How is someone going to pay for it if they can not work? Also, we need people who, what is currently low-paid work, because that work is necessary, and those people are not going to be able to afford healthcare. You will either have to raise the minimum wage (which I suspect Libertarians dislike doing) in order for people to be able to afford to pay for healthcare (or not if that is their wish) or tax the more wealthy in order to support the health of the lower paid. The other problem with the first option is that it would force all wages and prices up, thereby ending up at the same place.

@ Wolfman
I don't see it as trolling yet, just wrong.

[JohnRawls]

That is your opinion, its not universal moral law or anything.

Established practice or tradition is considered the states opinion on a question in the Un .

Some quotes on the matter from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights . IT is binding to America legally.

Article 21.

* (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
* (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
* (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
* Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 25.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
* (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

[Kman]

How is someone going to pay for it if they can not work?

If they have just a few brain cells in their head then they should have insurance against major diseases.

If your house burns down and you dont have insurance, do you expect the government to pay for the rebuilding?

And sure a few people would not be able to afford health care or insurance under a system like that, and thats just too bad, its survival of the fittest or well that is how it should be.

[Eauz]

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

But if health care is not a public service, they don't have the right.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Ahh, I love the DRH, it's so full of undefined terms and completely open to interpretation.

[JohnRawls]

So why you signed under and rattified the Universal Charter of the Human Rights if you don't want to follow it ?

We don't live in the Jungle by the way Kman.

To Eauz : Yes UDOHM has its fair share of abiguity that is for sure compared to the European declaration which plainly states that universal health care is a fundamental right .

Actually the 2nd one is not so ambigiouse by the way if you read it .

Article 25.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
* (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

[The Clockwork Rat]

If they have just a few brain cells in their head then they should have insurance against major diseases.

Even insurance is unaffordable to some people. I feel like you ignored what I said.

Some people can not afford healthcare or insurance. These people also do jobs that are required to keep the cogs running smoothly. We can't ignore that these people need healthcare. Therefore, we either need to increase the minimum wage which, if done incorrectly, increases inflation, or force those who have money to pay for those who can't afford healthcare or insurance. This can be done through taxing large companies, individuals, high end goods, etc, or by forcing companies to pay for the insurance of their employees. However, as we all know, not even all companies can afford to pay for their employees' insurance. Therefore, you are left with taxing the wealthy individuals. I repeat, people need healthcare, even the poorest, because otherwise you don't have anyone to do the semi-skilled or unskilled jobs.

[Oxymoron]

Socially "centrist"/fiscally Conservative Nationalist

[Nets]

I repeat, people need healthcare, even the poorest, because otherwise you don't have anyone to do the semi-skilled or unskilled jobs.

You don't think that there is a surplus of labor at this level? Under the above reasoning, more healthcare would increase the ranks of the poor, depressing wages further (or causing more unemployment).

[Wolfman]

Unless there was a way for people to rise from the lowe income levels to the middle or upper income levels. Then, you'd have a stock of people able to start new companies and employ more people, which would balance out with the possibility of more people depressing wages. But, we don't have a way for people to increase there income level, so it doesn't matter.

[Kman]

If government got out of health care completely then it would be affordable to just about every american, I remember listening to a speech by the economist Peter Schiff, his father sold health insurances in the 1960's and Peter talked about how back then a years coverage against all major diseases cost 15$. Then ofc the government started subsidicing health care via tax benefits from employers and that caused the health care system to lose its incentive to keep prices low and stay efficient.

[Wolfman]

God knowns inflation and mandating good care has nothing to do with. It's all the government fault. It's always the governments fault. Fuck the government.