- 04 Nov 2009 10:12
#13223479
That's very interesting. By issuing such strict criteria, the British authorities actually made people more cynical... well, less interested in religion. It's like reading: You may love reading about history but once you have to study for a history exam, it will likely become less interesting.
I don't know if the British model could have been more strictly and successfully applied in Turkey. Islam is an aggressive religion that has a good side and a dark side - it can be abused in the wrong hands...
Yes. Only the exceptionally retarded can choose it by their own will.
Yes. If you are.. Britain, for example. Kudos to Potemkin for explaining the British case.
The Ottomans were reluctant to modernize? Ottoman science crumbled because of the pressures by the Shiekh-ul Islam. A notable example is the death of Ottoman astronomy and sailing after foreign and Ottoman scientists were forbidden to continue their work - after an earthquake in Istanbul (early 17th century) the Shiekh ul-Islam pressured the Sultan (Caliph) Mehmet IV to close down the Galata Tower (then an important scientific center) because the scientists were trying to "uncover Allah's secrets" (which presumably pissed off Allah). The palace institutions were corrupted too. But that's another story.
The Ottoman Empire dedicated the entire 18th and 19th century to modernization and it seemed that the Ottoman Empire might finally become a reasonably democratic place but the first proper constitution was immediately suspended by the Sultan (1877 Abdulhamit II, because he was an asshole).
The only reforms that sort of worked was in the military (and this excludes the navy) and the creation of a westernized officer class (the last generation produced Ataturk and his comrades) that finally did away with the Ottoman Empire.
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I'm sorry. I was under the impression that multitudes of women in Iran and the Middle East are not being forced, by law, to cover themselves. There is no shred of patriarchy in these places either.
None of the above. "Nomadic horsemen warriors who adhere to pagan beliefs or Buddhism" would have been the right question. For the record, a so called "sterile atheistic state" would be excellent - it is way better than a state where women are subordinate to men and have to dress up like ninjas.
Would you think me rude if I insinuated that you are naive?
Really? Prove it.
Ha ha. That is cute.
Why should anyone make a women feel immodest for not dressing up like a ninja? You don't see a problem with that either, I suppose?
They had 623 years to do it. It has nothing to do with wealth though. It was because of the multiethnic nature of the Empire but Arabic script was used in most official correspondence but it was still hard and not entirely compatible with Turkish. Frankly, changing the script and reducing Arabic words (and adding/inventing Turkish ones) was a wise idea. It's not anyone's fault but it took a stroke of brilliance to solve.
The Ottoman sultans were the Caliphs. Few Sultans fostered change, others impeded it.
No. The Fez originates from... Fez, or Morrocco. It gained popularity with the Ottoman army (in later years) but it's worn in various other places. Among others, the Greeks also wear fezes... well, at least special divisions in the Greek army puts on fezes during parades and such.
What does headgear have to nationalism?
If you wish to believe so.
Tru dat.
Yeah... No. On a scale of suckiness from 1-10 (10 being really sucky), that would be 100 or something.
That's interesting. A similar process happened in Britain in the 16th and 17th centuries - the state swallowed up religion and reduced it to merely one more government Ministry. The process was so successful in fact that the notorious 18th century atheist David Hume once said that he was strongly in favour of an official state religion because it had "destroyed the pestilence of religious enthusiasm". Unfortunately, it seems not to have had that effect in Turkey. The reason is probably that Ataturk allowed too much religious tolerance; in Britain, all religious sects other than the official state religion of Anglicanism were repressed. Anyone who wanted to become a government official had to be a follower of the Anglican Church. In fact, anyone who even wanted a university education had to be in communion with the Church of England. University lecturers had to actually be ordained into the Anglican Church before they were allowed to teach. The official state religion was used as a loyalty test by the state authorities. Over time, this meant that those with any genuine religious feelings were reduced to impotent irrelevance, and the vast majority of adherents to the official state religion had no genuine religious beliefs; praying in church was merely a rather quaint way of swearing an oath of loyalty to the secular authorities. This process has made Britain into one of the most secular and godless nations on Earth. The same thing might have happened in Turkey of only Ataturk had not been so tolerant and if he had bound the state and the official state religion more closely together.
That's very interesting. By issuing such strict criteria, the British authorities actually made people more cynical... well, less interested in religion. It's like reading: You may love reading about history but once you have to study for a history exam, it will likely become less interesting.
I don't know if the British model could have been more strictly and successfully applied in Turkey. Islam is an aggressive religion that has a good side and a dark side - it can be abused in the wrong hands...
Is that a fact, is it?
Yes. Only the exceptionally retarded can choose it by their own will.
Furthermore, one can still maintain the old institutions and be modern at the same time.
Yes. If you are.. Britain, for example. Kudos to Potemkin for explaining the British case.
Simply because the Ottomans were reluctant to take on modernity
The Ottomans were reluctant to modernize? Ottoman science crumbled because of the pressures by the Shiekh-ul Islam. A notable example is the death of Ottoman astronomy and sailing after foreign and Ottoman scientists were forbidden to continue their work - after an earthquake in Istanbul (early 17th century) the Shiekh ul-Islam pressured the Sultan (Caliph) Mehmet IV to close down the Galata Tower (then an important scientific center) because the scientists were trying to "uncover Allah's secrets" (which presumably pissed off Allah). The palace institutions were corrupted too. But that's another story.
The Ottoman Empire dedicated the entire 18th and 19th century to modernization and it seemed that the Ottoman Empire might finally become a reasonably democratic place but the first proper constitution was immediately suspended by the Sultan (1877 Abdulhamit II, because he was an asshole).
The only reforms that sort of worked was in the military (and this excludes the navy) and the creation of a westernized officer class (the last generation produced Ataturk and his comrades) that finally did away with the Ottoman Empire.
---
You cannot say it is forced upon people.
I'm sorry. I was under the impression that multitudes of women in Iran and the Middle East are not being forced, by law, to cover themselves. There is no shred of patriarchy in these places either.
n Islamic society which Turkey has been for centuries, or this ideological sterile atheistic state in which there is no freedom of religious expresison?
None of the above. "Nomadic horsemen warriors who adhere to pagan beliefs or Buddhism" would have been the right question. For the record, a so called "sterile atheistic state" would be excellent - it is way better than a state where women are subordinate to men and have to dress up like ninjas.
If there is any problem the woman's parents, family or friends, then cans he not run to Mr. Kemal and the state?
Would you think me rude if I insinuated that you are naive?
Men and women are equal in Islam.
Really? Prove it.
No, she is not consenting, she is pushing it with full force and doing so as a free thinking independent woman!
Ha ha. That is cute.
Why can you not understand that some may wish to wear it because they feel it is immodest not to?
Why should anyone make a women feel immodest for not dressing up like a ninja? You don't see a problem with that either, I suppose?
The Ottoman Empire was poor at that time and granted, they should have done more to increase literacy.
They had 623 years to do it. It has nothing to do with wealth though. It was because of the multiethnic nature of the Empire but Arabic script was used in most official correspondence but it was still hard and not entirely compatible with Turkish. Frankly, changing the script and reducing Arabic words (and adding/inventing Turkish ones) was a wise idea. It's not anyone's fault but it took a stroke of brilliance to solve.
this was a mistake of the Ottoman leadership of the day and not a mistake of the Caliphate.
The Ottoman sultans were the Caliphs. Few Sultans fostered change, others impeded it.
Because it was a uniquely Turkish symbol, was it not?
No. The Fez originates from... Fez, or Morrocco. It gained popularity with the Ottoman army (in later years) but it's worn in various other places. Among others, the Greeks also wear fezes... well, at least special divisions in the Greek army puts on fezes during parades and such.
Would Turkish nationalism not be ready to receive it?
What does headgear have to nationalism?
In this sense, Kemal was not really a nationalist, only an ideologue.
If you wish to believe so.
The religious adopt science to fill the holes their religion creates or doesnt explain. What science does not cover, does not matter to science.
Tru dat.
Turkey is our closest ally.
I hope that turkey becomes a Islamo-fascist state, like demanded by the grey wulfs, and the MHP.
I love Bozcourt Turks.
Yeah... No. On a scale of suckiness from 1-10 (10 being really sucky), that would be 100 or something.
"It is a dangerous thing to be a Machiavelli. It is a disastrous thing to be a Machiavelli without virtū."
- Hans J. Morgenthau
- Hans J. Morgenthau
Is it something bad that he pushed reforms to get people learn how to read and write?
The truth is even the knowledge that those hips and breasts exist somewhere inside a burka,sari,kimono etc.. make some men not able to concentrate in certain societies.It is not about women covering it more,it is about how decent men are 
- By wat0n