[RhetoricThug]

Is capitalism a physical manifestation of psychopathy? OR does it simply reward psychopathic tendencies?
Based on Robert Hare's psychopathy checklist, would you agree that capitalism is inclined to favor those without conscience?

Aggressive Narcissism
1. GLIB AND SUPERFICIAL CHARM — the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. He can also be a great listener, to simulate empathy while zeroing in on his targets’ dreams and vulnerabilities, to be able to manipulate them better.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — a grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING — can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS: the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT: a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT: emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness and superficial warmth.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY: a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE: an intentional, manipulative, selfis, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline and the inability to carry through one’s responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS: expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR: a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of numerous, multiple relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity (rape) or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits and conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS: a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS: an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY: the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations and momentary urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY: repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS: a failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM RELATIONSHIPS: a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including in marital and familial bonds.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY: behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE: a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY: a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes or wrongdoings.

Could it be- that capitalism is causation for aggressive narcissism?
Also, here is a wonderful presentation by journalist Jon Ronson I found to be fascinating.
[youtube]xYemnKEKx0c[/youtube]

[roxunreal]

All of the above fits onto other ideologies even more - the more loony "great leader" the ideology is, it fits better. For example, Idi Amin first comes to mind when reading that, though nine out of ten authoritarians both left and right could be described in part or in full by the OP.

That's not to say that neoliberal capitalism isn't a menace that will have to be and eventually will be restrained and reined in to form an amalgamation with socialist values and thus provide the best of both worlds, while leaving the worst for history.

[Potemkin]

Rather than claiming that various political and/or economic systems are or are not 'psychopathic' (whatever that means), it would probably be more useful to compare them to various personality disorders (which can be defined slightly more objectively than psychopathy). My personal feeling is that communist systems (that is, in the form of 'actual existing socialism') are essentially paranoid, whereas capitalist systems are essentially schizoid.

[Heisenberg]

That list reads like a personality profile of Bill Clinton.

Capitalism certainly rewards "psychopathic" behaviour, as shown by the well-documented prevalence of psychopathy among CEOs of large companies. Having said that, you'd be hard-pressed to find an economic/political system that doesn't. The trick is to find a way of rewarding the bastards, while doing the least damage to everyone else.

[RhetoricThug]

Rather than claiming that various political and/or economic systems are or are not 'psychopathic' (whatever that means), it would probably be more useful to compare them to various personality disorders (which can be defined slightly more objectively than psychopathy). My personal feeling is that communist systems (that is, in the form of 'actual existing socialism') are essentially paranoid, whereas capitalist systems are essentially schizoid.

Good point. I wanted this topic to open up conversation with pieces like the one you posted. And if one was to compare personality disorders to systems of organization, then wouldn't those systems be manifestations of personality defects? Can they represent a collective's thought process, or are these systems of governance born out of aberration as response to an objective reality basing itself on subjective influences? Typically founded on the principles adhered by a minority ruling the high class of any given hierarchy.

Top down tyranny must present the Orwellian argument that ignorance is strength for such social institutions (capitalist, communist, etc) to be forced upon the middle and lower class, then practiced collectively in order to maintain the desired reflection of personality traits found in those who rule.

Also, what if I change the world psychopathic, to say- parasitic. It would be a symptom of specific personality traits, thus synonymous IMO... But I could be generalizing my entire argument with vague juxtapositions...

[oppose_obama]

This is a silly list. I easily hit them all except 13 and 19 which are silly and not really indicative of anything. I imagine many people also have a few here and there regarding these points. I don't think this indicates anything wrong with you.

[Donna]

I am wary of fall-from-grace narrations that try to present past eras as somehow being more democratic or free or whatever. Americans are especially guilty of this because of their history as the horizon of Western civilization, which had a tendency to create brief periods of illusory utopias that would quickly dissipate. Most of the world's history has been one big horror story leading into the even bigger horror story of industrially induced ecological catastrophe and breakouts of fascism.

[RhetoricThug]

This is a silly list. I easily hit them all except 13 and 19 which are silly and not really indicative of anything. I imagine many people also have a few here and there regarding these points. I don't think this indicates anything wrong with you.

Is it because you were raised by a culture that desires these traits, thus you adopted them appropriately?

And I'm curious, are you suggesting that psychology be a pseudoscience?

I am wary of fall-from-grace narrations that try to present past eras as somehow being more democratic or free or whatever. Americans are especially guilty of this because of their history as the horizon of Western civilization, which had a tendency to create brief periods of illusory utopias that would quickly dissipate. Most of the world's history has been one big horror story leading into the even bigger horror story of industrially induced ecological catastrophe and breakouts of fascism.

I agree, Donald. Once we had the means of production to free individuals from social bondage and universally raise the standard of living (in light of industrial mechanization of production), the ruling class decided to change course and use the abundance of resources for war induced by propaganda. A classless society is said to be impossible for classical civilization with all of its grandiose tiers of leadership to continue onwards... At least that's what we are told.

[oppose_obama]

And I'm curious, are you suggesting that psychology be a pseudoscience?

im suggesting this particular test is pseudoscience.

[Citizen Kane]

No, I see no correlation.

Show me an economic system in a country that hasn't had it's share of looney people or crazy periods in their society?

[mikema63]

Other, I wouldn't classify economic systems according to human psychological conditions.

Psychopathy though, is quite real, I find it immensely interesting as a subject. It has been shown that there are actual physiological differences in the brains of psychopaths vs. "normal" brains.

Generally based around the amygdala, hippocampus and parahippocampal gyri, anterior and posterior cingulate cortex, striatum, insula, and frontal and temporal cortex.

Of course, a checklist of outward behaviors is by far an inferior way to know if someone has this, but O_O it is not necessarily bad to be a psychopath and many have speculated on the potential benefits.

[The Clockwork Rat]

My personal feeling is that communist systems (that is, in the form of 'actual existing socialism') are essentially paranoid, whereas capitalist systems are essentially schizoid.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

[Oxymoron]

Capitalism is the most natural expression of humanity.

[SolarCross]

Capitalism = respected property rights, trade and investment. Nothing in that could possibly cause psychopathy nor could it be an expression of psychopathy. If anything it is the opposite of psychopathy. It is a very civilised thing to peacefully trade even with complete strangers and tribal "other"s. Politics is the more natural home for the psychopath.

[Rei Murasame]

You say that as though capitalism is somehow 'not a political arrangement'. People didn't just decide to get up one day and arrange themselves into mafia-like company hierarchies because it looked like a great way to volunteer to transform human society. The potential use of force lurks somewhere behind all human interactions, even if it's just theoretical and no one has to act on it.

That said, I don't even think that the 'psychopathic checklist' makes any sense. All that list seems to suggest is that if you don't act like you are living in an airbrushed version of some medieval village, that something is wrong with you. Well, cuddly medieval society with its blood ties and reciprocal obligations, also had practices like just taking out your sword and doing tsujigiri against a random person in the night, and it also had honour killing against people of a lower caste who insulted or wronged you.

Every light casts a shadow. But perhaps it doesn't matter which side you are standing on, perhaps it matters more which ideological road you are travelling.

[Cartertonian]

Based on Robert Hare's psychopathy checklist, would you agree that capitalism is inclined to favor those without conscience?

I would.

But as has been commented upon or alluded to herein it is the systems that have developed from the principles of capitalism that reward psychopathy. As Taxizen observes, the core principles are noble enough, but when you try to enact them systemically those core principles are sullied. Why, for example should a company's legal first obligation be to make money for their shareholders? That is at least the position in UK law. Surely the first obligation should be to do whatever they were set up to do - be it manufacturing widgets or selling flowers or providing services? A company should surely work for its customers, not its shareholders - who having gambled/invested should only be getting a return if the customer is happy?

Ergo, if your very corporate legal system is skewed to prioritise the making of money as the first obligation, those who are money-driven - which usually correlates with egocentricity and sociopathy - are going to thrive in that environment.



As for Bob Hare's checklist, like any such list it is riven with flaws and potentials for misinterpretation. The bottom line is how an individual relates to society and if the individual sees themselves in a competitive/adversarial relationship with society that is going to trigger a PD diagnosis.

[Social_Critic]

I've noticed upper management ranks in large corporations do tend to be full of controlled psychopaths. On the other hand I don't find much difference between privately owned, stock, or state owned corporations. In other words, it seems some psychopaths control their urges and do rise to the top. And they do so in any system.

The most abusive and utterly dictatorial managers I found where either those former communist party bosses who moved on to become oligarchs, and company managers in central and South America. But the orientals tend to be very restrained in front of foreigners. And I never met a high ranking African official outside of a very formal setting where they do tend to behave.

[Drlee]

Rhetoric thug wins the award for the most thoughtful poll on POFO this year.

Love it.

[Lexington]

Perhaps capitalism itself is not an actual manifestation, but does reward aggressive narcissism by default

I think this, but so does all of history.

Capitalism just leads to less dead people in doing it by law rather than by war/murder. Prior to capitalism you had to kill someone to acquire their property, now you can buy it or sue them under the rule of law.

Which may still not be pretty or equitable in many cases.

[skeptic-1]

"RhetoricThug" Is capitalism a physical manifestation of psychopathy? OR does it simply reward psychopathic tendencies?
Based on Robert Hare's psychopathy checklist, would you agree that capitalism is inclined to favor those without conscience?

Aggressive Narcissism
1. GLIB AND SUPERFICIAL CHARM — the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. He can also be a great listener, to simulate empathy while zeroing in on his targets’ dreams and vulnerabilities, to be able to manipulate them better.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — a grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING — can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS: the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT: a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT: emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness and superficial warmth.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY: a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE: an intentional, manipulative, selfis, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline and the inability to carry through one’s responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS: expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR: a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of numerous, multiple relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity (rape) or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits and conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS: a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS: an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY: the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations and momentary urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY: repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS: a failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM RELATIONSHIPS: a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including in marital and familial bonds.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY: behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE: a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY: a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes or wrongdoings.[/quote]

Could it be- that capitalism is causation for aggressive narcissism?
Also, here is a wonderful presentation by journalist Jon Ronson I found to be fascinating.

You're attacking everything I love
about our system ! :-)