[CasX]

The end justifies the means.

I don't think so, instead I like an Einstein quote:

Perfection of means and confusion of ends seem to characterise our age.

Do you think the end justifies the means?

[Sovietski]

lol i had to learn about the guy who wrote that saying in history...um i think that saying is pretty corrupt if u dont know what it means here u go
"no matter what u do (leagle/illeage) if u achieve your goal in the end its ok" basicly if i wana becomne president i can kill (or be voted) as many people as i want as long as i become president......corrupt as they come

[Evan Roberts]

Actually sovietski, I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that.

The end has to justify the means, you example is just plain selfishness. For the end to justify the mean, the result has to make up for the means.

Ie. I will kill a hundred people which will make people hate me, but if they understood why I did it, they would realise it was for the best. - The end justifies the means.

[Sovietski]

sorry my class is pretty dumb..the stuff i read on that guy was just in a sense "Evil" no good examples and he used it for bad things adn the ruler at the time to so u are right the end justifies the means

[Man On The Moon]

I think many of the world's top security agencies during the cold war (KGB, CIA) operated under the motto "the end justifies the means."

[redstar2000]

The classic formulation, by Dostoyevsky, went something like this:

if all of humanity could live forever in bliss, but this could only be achieved by torturing to death a single child, would the end justify the means?

Some take this to infer that "the ends can never justify the means."

I think in the real world, things are much fuzzier. There are means that I cannot see ever being justified by communists; however, there are some measures that would be condemned by the bourgeoisie and their religious lapdogs that I would see as perfectly justified.

It sort of depends on (1) what means? (2) what ends? and (3) who is making the argument?

[Ixa]

Hahah. A clear example of the end justifying the means is receiving pay by working. You may have to endure six hours of hard labour, but if you receive adequate money at the end of the day, week, or whatever, the end justified the means. However, if you recieved a mere pittance for excessive labour, the end did not justify the means. Or, again, if you can save 10 lives by killing one man, the end justified the means. If all potential murderers (sociopaths, etc) were shot by the State, the State could save millions of valuable lives (good citizens). The end would, in that case, have justified the means; but there are, of course, many cases wherein the end did not in fact justify the means. These, however, are invariably a matter of opinion, and cannot be confirmed by observation.

If the end, therefore, is sufficiently good, it can be justified by whatever means.

[Proctor]

Thats interesting Evan. I've never heard it put like that. To me, 'the ends justify the means' means as long as you got what you wanted, its alright, rather than what you got must be better than what you did.

I know of that Dostoyevsky quote. It is scary. I know I couldn't kill the child, or even order his death. But that would mean that I was denying all the world their blissful eternity. It would be so much easier if it was someone else's choice...

Work makes a good example of the ends justify the means. But....

If all potential murderers (sociopaths, etc) were shot by the State, the State could save millions of valuable lives (good citizens). The end would, in that case, have justified the means;

I honestly hope you didn't mean that.

[Man On The Moon]

In Britian the NHS must provide free and comprehensive care to all british citizens. it must do its best to ensure a person lives no matter what.

if it could save the state billions, if those saved billions could save thousands of lives through new cancer treatments, or better facilites that could rehabilitate for example hundreds of people, should critically ill pensioners suffering from progressive age related illnesses, whom have only a few short years of limited life be treated with all that the NHS posseses? if it only adds perhaps months to their lives?

if all emotional responses were eliminated the simple answer is yes,

"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

but nothing is ever as simple as that.

[the SovieT]

i think the ends can never justiry the means...

see thats exactly what USA is doing, killing and destroying entire countrys for "freedom"
theyr ends are freedom, or at least thats what they say.. yet theyr means are pure fascism...

its kinda like fucking for verginity..
or killing for peace...

[CasX]

Ends do not justify means - means become ends.

[Comrade Koatna]

Actually Machiavelli wrote that phrase and i agree with Sovietski. When someone says does the end justify the means...It means exactly that whatever it takes to get to your destiantion its ok just as long as you get there.

[Ixa]

i think the ends can never justiry the means...

see thats exactly what USA is doing, killing and destroying entire countrys for "freedom"
theyr ends are freedom, or at least thats what they say.. yet theyr means are pure fascism...

its kinda like fucking for verginity..
or killing for peace...

"The ends can never justify the means." That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You receive a sufficient quantity of money in proportion to the amount of labour you have done. The end justified the means. Otherwise no one would work.

[Skullers]

I know of that Dostoyevsky quote. It is scary. I know I couldn't kill the child, or even order his death.

If you didn't, millions of other children would suffer. Kill the child.

Ends justify means.

[Proctor]

If you didn't, millions of other children would suffer.

I know that. But it doesn't make it any easier. I just couldn't do it.

I will honestly never understand quite why Lenin hated Kautsky so much.

[Comrade Koatna]

I personally beleive the end ALWAYS can justify the means