[Decky]

but it's safe to say that the British would have been run through Suez and Palestine into Iran were it not for the Eastern Front.

No shit. The second world war (in Europe) was the eastern front.

We did it together so no one should be claiming sole victory.

North Africa? Britain and the commonwealth did it together, the Americans turned up at the end after the Germans had started loosing so they could claim to have been there (business as usual then).

[GunsnRoses]

Rommel killed himself in his home town in Germany, and was forced to do so by his own German command

That is germane to the topic in no way, as it is absolutely unrelated to the military situation in North Africa. Despite the carnage in Tunisia, Rommel was still extended command for the defense of Normandy. Rommel committed suicide because of the discovery of his loose connections with those involved with Stauffenberg's treasonous July Plot. He was given the choice of maintaining honor and a state funeral or being disgraced by men like men such as Canaris. Whether Rommel was for or against the assassination attempt, he was a man of honor and thus chose honor.

I know. I was only correcting the mistake Figlio di Moros made, because his text had a slight hint that Rommel was forced to commit suicide because of the American action in North Africa, Italy and France, which is absolutely not true. So I was only pointing out that the American action in Europe during WWII had little to do with Rommel's suicide. The rest of your text is valid and I agree that Rommel was an exemplary commander in terms of skill, honour and chivalry , even though he fought on the wrong side.

FRS, as to continue with non-related questions, I am quite curious whether or not you wish that Stauffenberg had succeeded?

[Red_Army]

The American contribution to WWII was definitely logistic, which shouldn't be downplayed. The amount of weapons, ammunition and equipment that we provided to the rest of the allies (particularly the Russians who obviously won the war) was pretty important. Our boots on the ground didn't hurt either, but I think our contribution (in Europe) was by and large giving the other allies shit to kill nazis with. In the Pacific we obviously had a bigger role in defeating the Japanese, but we still by no means did it alone.

While arguing about whose knowledge of history is better is somewhat valid, the posturing about whose dick is bigger based on this contribution is stupid. None of us were involved in this conflict. Even if your grampa killed a million nazis, you didn't.

[Figlio di Moros]

My great-grandad narrowly missed the Baton Death March, my mom's dad was a sailor in the Atlantic, my dad's dad fought in Korea, his mom's current boyfriend of ~15 years fought in Vietnam, and my dad was in Kurdistan. Needless to say, the wars we fight have an impact on our culture and our society.

That said, GunsRoses, I didn't mean to give that illusion. Though, if I could rewrite the history books, it'd be a damned awesome myth to perpetuate.

[Red_Army]

Ya I have family who fought in died in WWII, my brother is currently a sailor, and I'm proud of all of them, but I still think its inappropriate to get into a game like this fighting over who did more. One person fighting and dying for his country is valiant, it takes away from that if you start bickering about whose side was more important overall.

I think Americans and Europeans both do this in equal amounts and I think its pretty silly.

[Far-Right Sage]

Quite right, Figlio.

Which is why the decision to enter conflict must be made with all relevant considerations.

I know. I was only correcting the mistake Figlio di Moros made, because his text had a slight hint that Rommel was forced to commit suicide because of the American action in North Africa, Italy and France, which is absolutely not true. So I was only pointing out that the American action in Europe during WWII had little to do with Rommel's suicide. The rest of your text is valid and I agree that Rommel was an exemplary commander in terms of skill, honour and chivalry , even though he fought on the wrong side.

Oh, I see. Yes, I misinterpreted your previous comments.

FRS, as to continue with non-related questions, I am quite curious whether or not you wish that Stauffenberg had succeeded?

No, quite frankly it was an act of treason against the nation that could not have gone unpunished. Furthermore, I had close family still quite active in the field, and the plan of Stauffenberg and several SPD men who wanted to drag Germany back to the days of Weimar and servitude was effectively to not only betray Hitler, but betray them all.

[Decky]

I think Americans and Europeans both do this in equal amounts and I think its pretty silly.

Maybe but we are right and you are wrong so only one side comes out of it looking silly.

[Figlio di Moros]

Actually, Decky, you come out looking like a douchebag, and Red comes out looking more agreeable. All because you want to be right on this issue.

[Decky]

All because you want to be right on this issue.

I don't want to be right I am right.

Allies:
United Kingdom
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
British India
Free French Forces
Kingdom of Greece

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bat ... El_Alamein

I don't seem to see Yankeeland there for some reason?

[Red_Army]

Whatever have fun with your silly limey pride about 70 year old glory, while your country languishes into insignificance.

[cimmee]

Funny question that one. If you were to count the number of visitors into the United States, my guess would be Europeans are at the top of the chart. So, for not liking the United States, they SURE visit here a lot. One usually does not go on vacation to places one hates. Maybe I am wrong on that, but methinks not.
By and large, my experience with Europeans who dislike the USA, is that they have an inferiority complex, which is hard to explain, as European culture and history have an incredible amount of stuff to be highly proud of. At the end of the day though, it boils down to resentment, resentment emanating from the fact that TWICE now, the US has had to sacrifice untold thousands of its young people to rescue Europe from the folly of its adults.
To be fair, some of it is just good natured kidding. I will never forget my first visit to an Irish Pub in the company of some newly found british friends: There was a beer sign in the Dublin Pub that said XYZ Beer, since 1748 or so. Newly found bud pokes me in the rib cage and points to the sign and says "see that?" "Yeah", I go,"what about it?" Replies the man: "our beers are older than your country". You had to be there, I guess.

Keep in mind that the Yerpies who hate America eat roadkill, have yellow stained teeth, and live in counsel houses.

[Negotiator]

Hmm. I cant help but wonder why this thread currently discusses things like WW2 ? People loved the USA because of what they did during WW2. Well okay, minus Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Still, the USA was most popular after WW2, especially in the 1960s, the age of John F. Kennedy and the moon landing.

But it was George Bush jr. ignorant and violent reaction to Sep 11, 2001 why people around the world started opposing the USA. A more noble and able president could have, in this moment, strengthened world peace by, for example, strengthening the UN. Bush only used it for a bunch of lies to start a war for oil, full of atrocities, like not counting iraqi deaths at all, declaring every killed iraqi a terrorist, torturing iraqis, ensuring they get highly favorable conditions for iraqi oil, and repeatedly giving increasingly absurd, all too easy to disprove reasons for the war. Thats why people around the world do not like the USA that much anymore.

[Tainari88]

To sum up my opinions on the questions of why Europeans hate Americans? I think they don't know the great variety of civilians of a lot of different ethnic groups that reside in the USA. I was invited to speak with a large group of German students long ago. They started to tell me how they hated George Bush's policies and so on. How 'my' country is not encouraging recycling and how corporate culture based in America like "Wal-Mart" is in Germany. I told them that it is a mistake to believe the vast majority of American citizens approve of the crap their government does. I distinguish between average, ordinary working Americans who have a lot in common with the average, working European and to focus their discontent on international capitalists and the entire rotten system that favors the ones in power. I also mentioned I am not some Anglo WASP elite with their entire savings invested in some stocks and bonds and so on. Neither were the vast majority of people in the states. I also told them I am from a nation that is colonized by the USA and that the USA acts like the European Imperial powers acted in the past. After all they are the ones who taught him how to go to foreign lands, dominate them, and colonize them and when the conditions are intolerable for the colonized that they then rebel and the European powers get upset. Look at your own history's MISTAKES. Learn from them and don't repeat what some greedy elites did in Europe. Because you will wind up getting what they got. A past that is unsavory and a destroyed economy that you will spend many decades rebuilding. That is what you get for making values that are not good your core principles.

[The Immortal Goon]

Tainari is about right. These things are issues because of fictional realities people choose to believe more than actual reality.

I'm grading papers in which students are responding to various views of conflicts between the West and the Middle East. It is really fucking frustrating how many of them have ignored virtually everything else they read all term and concentrate on one portion of, "Confessions of An Economic Hitman" where Indonesians have a puppet show that portrays Americans as greedy tyrants. The students whine that all Muslims think this about Americans and how unfair it is because not all Americans are like that. They, naturally, see no irony in assigning thoughts to all Muslims and defending themselves from a group of Muslims assigning thoughts to all Americans.

This is really why these nationalist pissing contests are absurd.

[Tainari88]

Precisely why I am not a nationalist TIG. Why internationalism and a sense of what really is driving the forces of conflict is essential. It is not about labels like "American" and "European" or nothing of that superficial nature. It is about working in cooperation and in fairness and dealing with the hard problems with logic, science, justice and sound systemic humane principles. Across the board. Period.

Nationalistic squabbling doesn't lead to any long term resolutions anyway. IT never does!

[Godstud]

For the record, Europeans need to actually MEET a real American before they sit judgment. I've met European tourists in the last few months that make the "Bad American Tourists" look like saints..

I think ethnocentrism is the reason, regardless.

[Figlio di Moros]

Most Europeans I've met were British, and usually commented on how friendly Americans tend to be. Of course, those Brits were pretty kind people as well.

Then again, no one makes their way out here without a purpose, so perhaps after so many years in our community or knowing whomever that brings them here, they're just more inclined towards us, unlike hispanics or carribeaners, Puerto Ricans excepted.

[Tainari88]

Are you talking about me Fig? "Puerto Ricans excepted" what does that mean? I eat beans and was born in the Caribbean. Am I a 'caribbeaner'? See, this is why you will be perceived to not be as intelligent as you are Fig. You are making comments that don't become you.

[Figlio di Moros]

Up here, Puerto Ricans count as something between hispanic and white. Basically, they tend to be lighter-skinned, and most are quite well adjusted. There's one I know who's darker-toned and actually grew up in Puerto Rico, instead of being a third generation NYer, but, as I said, well adjusted. The Puerto Ricans, for all intensive purposes, might as well be Italian.

On the other hand, the Mexicans/Central Americans, Jamaicans, and Haitians tend to be rude and off-putting. When you have scenerios like their bus pulling in, swarming WalMart and them knocking down people w/ their carts or making women feel uncomfortable, how could you not understand us wanting them out of our damn country?

[Tainari88]

Up here, Puerto Ricans count as something between hispanic and white. Basically, they tend to be lighter-skinned, and most are quite well adjusted. There's one I know who's darker-toned and actually grew up in Puerto Rico, instead of being a third generation NYer, but, as I said, well adjusted. The Puerto Ricans, for all intensive purposes, might as well be Italian.

On the other hand, the Mexicans/Central Americans, Jamaicans, and Haitians tend to be rude and off-putting. When you have scenerios like their bus pulling in, swarming WalMart and them knocking down people w/ their carts or making women feel uncomfortable, how could you not understand us wanting them out of our damn country?

Are you serious with this shit Fig? Do you really believe all this garbage you just wrote? Please tell me you don't believe what you just wrote? I am lighter skinned than most and as such I rank between white and Hispanic? Are you serious Fig? C'mon.

And where is exactly 'up here'?